Recently I encountered a group that claims to be God’s special “elect” people as harbingers of doom and individuals who have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit to perceive that May 21, 2011 will be day of rapture for God’s people and death and destruction for everybody else. They are the devotees of Harold Camping, a retired engineer with no Bible education or training whatsoever who set out to “discover” the countdown to destruction as he believes is “clearly” indicated by the Bible itself.
There are 3 main things to know about this group’s belief system:
1) Harry Camping’s core idea is linked to Noah and that God told Noah about the Flood before its arrival. As such, the core slogan for this group is: “Noah Knew, So Can We.” Indeed, their website is called www.wecanknow.com/.
2) A core part of their theology is what we might call “strong” Calvinism or “double predestination” whereby God foreordains which individuals will “go” to heaven and which ones will end up in hell. Harold Camping (and his followers) make much about the idea that there is nothing anyone can “do” to be saved, but in reality, they make studying the Scriptures and a person’s openness to the truth of May 21st the key parts of what it takes to be saved. This is played out in various parts of the thread below.
3) Finally, this sect teaches absolutely no confidence in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for salvation. As part of their hardline Calvinism, they adamantly claim people cannot “accept” Christ’s gift of grace and salvation. However, this is also where they are inconsistent with their denouncement of “works salvation,” for instead of trusting in Christ, their leader instructs them merely to believe that May 21 will be the rapture and to wail and moan and “cry out to God for mercy” in the hope that God will save them. In that sense, this sect shares far more with Islam and forms of Judaism than it does with actual Christianity.
What follows below are conversations I have had with various members of this cult-like group in regard to their interpretive framework and possible outcomes should May 21 come and go without event. The original conversations took place in the Yahoo Group Forum: “Latter Day Rain” and on the critical website: http://departout.com.
My intention was/is to follow the group in the months and weeks preceding May 21st, 2011 and then to observe how they handle the aftermath of being mistaken, deceived and disillusioned by their leader, Harold Camping.
As I see it, there are really only 3 basic options that these people have when their so-called “prophet” and his “prophecy” are revealed to be in error:
1) They will finally move on to a deeper faith (this time with eyes wide open, but without all this Harold Camping business), or
2) They will lose faith in both Christ and Camping, or
3) They will simply make excuses for Camping and go right back to making the Bible dance to another doomsday calendar song.
It is my hope that they will select option #1, but I fear that #2 and #3 are more likely. As you can see from the thread that follows, none of my conversation partners are even willing to consider what option they might choose if Harold Camping’s doomsday formula turns out to be a sham (at least not out loud). I suspect that this is because, like cults, honest questions and expressions of doubt simply are not tolerated. This is unfortunate.
-C. Lambeth
Matthew 24:10-11 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
(Readers interested in the mathematical formula deployed by Harold Camping should skip down to the April 28th comments and thereafter)
Darrell Lockridge Tom Holt II Rick Hagins
Exploring Faith 
MPORTANT – PLEASE READ
There are 3 things you need to know about the Latter Rain group:
We are a NON-CHURCH based email discussion group. Actually, we believe that ALL CHURCHES ARE NOW SPIRITUALLY DEAD, and are currently RULED OVER BY SATAN, as stated would happen near the end of time (2 Thessalonians 2)!
MOST OF US ARE FAMILY RADIO LISTENERS, and are grateful for the many fine teachings heard there over the years, particularly by it’s president and general manager HAROLD CAMPING.
How does your group interpret the issue addressed in Matt. 24:36?
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
-CL
PS: There are only two points in your previous post, not three.
Well, we read verse 37: As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
You see, the Lord has made known to us what previously had only been known to him. The Lord withheld the information during the church age. It was meant to be concealed until the appointed time, namely at the end of the world. Where we currently are. We have “special” insight only insofar as the Bible tells us:
Amos 3:7 – Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Daniel 12:4 – But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Rick Hagins
Rick,
Thank you for the reply. Merely pointing to verse 37 doesn’t solve much. Regarding the other verses you cited, I must still ask how has the Lord made this information known to your leader? You said that this information was meant to be concealed until the appointed time, but what is it in the biblical text that led you/ him to the conclusion that now is the time? Even if you allow for some interpretive license on Amos 3:7, how can you trust your leader’s mathematical formulations on the issue?
-CL
Lambeth, notice that God simple says no one knows, BUT, He does NOT say no one can know. Look at the very similar language God uses in Roman 3:10 there He says no one is righteous. So using your argument of saying no one can know we have to say no one can be righteous, but of course we know that’s not the case. What we know about these 2 similar verses is that we all start off not righteous and not knowing but once we are saved and filled with the Holy Spirit then and only then we can be righteous and we can know.
Please read 1 Corinthians 2:11 “For who knows a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit within? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”
Karo, I did not make an argument. I merely asked a question: “How do you interpret the Matthew passage?” Now, let me ask another, What is it in the Bible that has lead you to think that your group “can know” now? Similarly, what part of 1 Cor 2:11 has lead you to think that the knowledge alluded to there encompasses the end of time?
Your group seems to be playing a dangerous game with the “That was then, this is now” line of thought. For example, Jesus also said that “No one comes to the Father except through me.” Using your logic, someone could just as easily say, “That was true when Jesus said it, but NOW the Spirit has revealed that Buddha, Jim Jones, Muhammed and Mr. Camping are also ‘ways’ to the Father.” My question remains, “How do you ‘know’ what you claim to know about your group’s interpretation and 2011? How much of a stretch is too much? Can you support it biblically and unequivocally, or is it merely through a convoluted mathematical formula that a sincere but confused human developed?
Thank you for our dialogue.
-CL
WE know the time because we have been “watching and praying” as the Bible instructs. It is true that the unsaved will not know. However, in Matthew 24:43 and Luke 12:39 God commands the believers to “know this.” In other words, they must know what hour/time the thief is coming.
When we hear the unsaved boldly proclaim “no one knows” the time, we know they are simply doing what they are supposed to do. In Revelation 3:3, God says they will not know what hour the thief comes because they are not watching. Of course, they are not watching because God has not opened their eyes to truth. God has removed truth from them.
Fear God and give glory to Him,
Darrell
Darrell,
I think there is some confusion here, for it is Jesus who said, “No one knows the day or time,” not the unbeliever, as you have misstated. I am quoting Christ, who are you citing? Just for the record.
-C. Lambeth
Lambert, you totally ignore the fact that Jesus also said/says “no one is righteous”. Either, you are willingly ignorant or you really don’t see. Let me say it again, just like God says “no one know…” God also says: “no one is righteous…” how do you reconcile that? How come you are ok with the fact that no one is righteous but after they are saved by Grace they can be righteous but not ok with the knowing the day once saved by Grace?
-Karo
Karo,
I am going to forgive your insults and hostilities. Be at peace. We are just talking. Er, typing.
Just so we’re clear, I do not dispute that the justification granted by Christ (alone) makes us “righteous.” But neither am I under any delusion that our sanctification is complete in our current state of affairs. We have not yet been “clothed with the imperishable.” None of us are morally perfected in the present just because we became followers of Christ. This is the classic paradox of perfection in Christ both “now” AND “not yet.”
And now, if I may retort, you have completely ignored my request to elucidate the connection between the knowing discussed by Paul in Corinthians and your claim to “know” the end of the world (especially at the expense of overthrowing of Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:36). I do not dispute knowledge in general, but where in the Bible is the specific case to connect the paradox of “now” and “not yet” in regards to the knowledge of the end of the world? I see it in discussing “righteousness,” but not with the type of “knowledge” that you proclaim. The burden of evidence here is upon you, not me. I tend to take Jesus at his word, and the reference to the flood in vv. 37+ is not to point out that Noah “knew” but rather that the world would be taken by surprise. I see no part of this pericope indicating that somebody really would know (besides the Father that is). In fact, if Jesus really DID intend to communicate that absolutely NO ONE would “know” the end of time other than the Father, how do you think he would have communicated that? Apparently his telling us in plain language is not enough?
respectfully,
-C. Lambeth (no ‘r’)
Then what was God referring to in the book of Daniel regarding ‘Seal these things up until the time of the end, and knowledge shall increase?’ What knowledge shall be increased? Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both use Daniel as a reference to examine regarding the time of the end. So we know that what Daniel was told is relevant to the end times and so we are not using that reference without justification.
Rick
To Rick, Karo, and Darrell —
You’re quoting scripture that has absolutely nothing to do with you and me in the 21st century, but in the context of old covenant israel. Look again at every one of your scripture quotes, DUH!!
You also quote Matthew 16:4 & Luke 21:32.
Which generation was Jesus talking to in both of those contexts?/ He said “THIS GENERATION”. The greek word “this” is a demonstrative pronoun which emphatically points to the generation that Jesus was living in in the first century. All the verses prior to this and Matt. 24 point to what would happen in 70a.d. with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple Complex – God’s once holy city and relational complex under the old covenant would now be destroyed due to the old covenantal people commiting harlotry against their God by rejecting Christ.
The question needs to be asked, “Who is Jesus talking to in Matt.24, and who are the letters written to in the new testament.”
He said, “THIS GENERATION” (demonstrative pronoun/specific first century contemporary people)= 40 year period=30a.d. – 70a.d.
The second coming was in their immediate future, otherwise Christ and Paul were both liars. All you have to do is read the context of Matt. 24(which starts at the end of Chap.23, and you’ll see that it all coincides with the disciples question about the temple complex and the end of the age-mosaic age -(not end of the world-bad translation from the KJV.) which would take place in their immediate future with the destruction of the temple in 70ad – that is why the second coming and resurrection were in the future. We are reading first century mail to those who would see these things take place in their generation.
Jesus Himself said that He would return “In the Glory of the Father”.
What did He mean by that statement?? God’s glory was revealed in His judgemnets on nations in the Old Testament (Read the examples below) – but first read this:
The parallel texts for Mark 13:30 are Matt.24:1-44 and Luke 17:20-37 ; 21:5-36. In all 3 gospels, Christ is addressing the disciples questions surrounding the temple and it’s destruction, which would be in that generation, (“this” generation = specific to the disciples, 40 years (30a.d.-70a.d.).
After they were admiring the First century temple buildings in Matt.24:1, Jesus tells His disciples in Matt.24:2 “See all these things? There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” He was specifically talking about the first century temple.
After this the disciples ask, “When will these things take place,(the destruction of the temple) and what will be the sign of your presence and the end of the age (Mosaic Age) – the Jews saw life in 2 ages: Mosaic Age and Messianic Age., in essence, “What will be the sign that You are reigning as Messiah and the Mosaic age has been done away with??”
The “sign” that Christ was reigning and the end of the Mosaic age, is seen in Matt.24:27-30.
Vs.27: As bright as lightning is, it means an imminent storm. The tribulation would reveal the soon coming of Christ (His presence in judgement).
Vs.29: The sun would be darkened, moon not give light, the stars fall from heaven.
Many believe this to be a literal destruction of the universe, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Jesus was talking to His “Jewish” disciples. The Jews saw this as “Apocalyptic Language” that described God’s judgement upon nations.
Read the following passages from the Old Testament to see how this language was used:
Ps.18:7-13 & 2 Sam.22:1-16 (David delivered out of Sauls hands)
Isa.13:1-11 (Judgement on Babylon)
Ezek. 32:1-16 (judgement on Egypt)
Isa.34:1-10 (judgement on Idumea & Bozrah) – see also Luke 23:28-30 & Rev.6:13-16 & Hosea 10:8 (judgements on Israel)
Amos 8:1-11 (judgement on Israel)
Joel 1:11-15 w/ Matt.21:33-46; Joel 2:28-32 (judgements on Israel)
There are a few more, but I’m sure you know what Jesus was saying – Judgement is coming soon on Jerusalem, and that would be in 70a.d.
Vs. 30: Judgement upon Jerusalem would be the sign that Christ was reigning in heaven at the right hand of the Father (Matt.26:63-66 – Christ was claiming that He would judge them, even as the Father had done in the Old Testament). The tribes of the land of Israel would mourn when they saw their only means of communication with God destroyed(the temple). The old heaven and earth would give way to the New Heaven and earth (old covenant -new covenant).
Scripture is applicable for today, but not the Prophetic end of it, because Christ and the Apostles promised a “soon coming and resurrection” in their generation (40 years). If they were promising the fulfillment of all things within their generation, then how can we be saying 2000 years later that “Jesus is coming soon!!” Were they lying to their first century audience? Were they filled to the brim with the Holy Spirit, and yet not able to bring the truth of Christ’s “soon coming??”
In 2Pet.3, you willfully forget that Peter is speaking to his first century audience about things that were predicted by the Prophets for THEIR last days. They were questioning the soon second-coming, just as those of Noah’s days. Both groups were denying a soon coming judgment on their generations.
Notice what Peter says in the Greek, ‘Seeing then that all these things ARE BEING DISSOLVED (present tense, first century scenario), what manner of persons ought you (first century believers) to be,……presently waiting and presently hastening the presence of the day of God, on account of which the heavens already being on fire will will be dissolved, and the elements already burning already melt.”
Speaking of Heaven and Earth, Isa.1:2 is speaking to Israel and Isa.51:13 & 16 is speaking of the creation of Israel. This is what Jesus is talking about (Heaven & Earth passing away) in the context of the destruction of the temple in Matt. 24. This is also what 2 Pet.3 is talking about as well.
Peter says he was living in the LAST DAYS – was he lying ?? (1Pet. 1:5, 20 / 4:5-7).
Read 2 Pet.2:1-3:7. Compare with all of Jude. They are both pointing to a present (first century ) situation in their last days. The last days scoffers were among them – the Greek text emphatically brings this out.
Also what Jude says in vs.14, that the coming of Christ to execute judgement would be on the first century wicked.
Also vss.17-19 , “…words spoken by the apostles” (Peter); “…There would be mockers in the last time walking after their own lusts…(2Pet.3:3); “THESE are the ones presently Separating themselves ( first century wicked amidst the first century believers).
1 Pet.1:5…”salvation about to be revealed in the last time.”
1 Pet.4:4 (first century wicked speaking evil).
1 Pet.4:5 (first century wicked will give account “to Him who is on the verge of judging the quick and dead.”
1 Pet.4:7 “The end of all things is at hand” (therefore, the first century believers were to be sober and watch.)
STOP BEING A COWARD, AND DEAL WITH MY POSTS EXEGETICALLY!! OTHERWISE, MEET ME HERE ON OCT.21 OF THIS YEAR, AND PUBLICALLY REPENT FOR CALLING CHRIST A LIAR !!
If you want the Free DVD and books that irrefutably prove Full-Preterism, then let me know here. I’ll even pay for shipping.
Rick,
This seems to be sticking point for several of those who have come to believe like you do. Let me try to re-communicate what I am saying: I do not doubt Daniel 12:4 or the Bible (at all). What I doubt is your understanding of it.
What all of you have failed to make clear or explain is how, precisely, you have used general verses about knowledge like the ones supplied above to justify your specific convictions about 5/21/11. Even more specifically, how have you been able to convince yourselves that Jesus’ specific words and teachings are overturned in Matthew 24:35-44 because of some general, non-specific references to knowledge at the end of time?
My most important question remains: What will happen to your faith in Jesus when May 22 arrives and the numbers game is revealed for the chimera it is?
-CL
Any understanding if the truth can only come from God’s revealing it to His elect. We are called to ‘rightly divide the Word of truth’ because it must be studied diligently. Most correct doctrine is built upon a compilation of many verses, some more obvious than others. If we are correct and God hid certain truths from our understanding, then it would have to have been masterfully hidden for discovery at a future point in time. Only those whom God chooses to reveal this hidden truth will see it. Unfortunately, either you see it or you’ll have to be the one to see what happens on May 22.
I’m glad you’re in the environment where God can open your eyes and I always encourage people to look into it before it’s too late. But soon enough you’ll find out if we are all crazy followers of our ‘leader.’ I hope you aren’t here just to convince us that we are wrong. Most of us have studied this for years and years, and I become more convinced every day and cant wait for the next few days to pass until May 21st!
Rick
Rick,
I can’t help but notice that you aren’t responding to any of my questions. That speaks more about your position than you may realize. No, I’m not going to try and convince you of anything. May 22 will do a far better job than I ever could, but I still want you to consider which parts of your faith will suffer most on that day. I pray that it isn’t your faith in Christ, but rather your faith in your interpretive paradigms that get cast aside. I really hope you can remember our conversations come May 22.
In the meantime, I really do want to understand your rationale. So if I am understanding you correctly, there are no specific Scriptures you can cite that are in support of the overthrowing of Jesus’ words in Matthew 24, or in support of the 5/21 deadline, but it doesn’t matter just because God told you so? Do I have that right?
-CL
No, Lambeth. You don’t have it right at ALL. Your questions are out of ignorance, but I will explain one more time. In Matthew 24:36, Jesus was talking to THOSE people and told THEM that THEY did not know when the end of time would happen. But we know that this does not apply to us because in the very next verse (37) the King James Version (the ONLY true version) says “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” God TOLD Noah about the flood. Noah KNEW. And Jesus said that before the very end it will be just like the situation with Noah. Translation: if May 21 is the end (and it is), then God’s elect can also know. And those who follow scripture like 1Th. 5:2-4 clearly understand that God’s elect will not be surprised on that day. We can know because we are God’s elect, and the Bible CLEARLY teaches this for those who have eyes to see. These teachings are all over http://www.wecanknow.com why don’t you do a little reading and educate yourself.
T
Tom,
You are a bit too hostile for my tastes, but thank you for your explanation. I now understand how your group draws parallels from Noah and the ark and Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:37, but there are some key differences between the flood and Matt 24:36, namely, that God doesn’t seem to take any efforts at keeping his plans secret in Genesis. He doesn’t say anything to the effect of, “About this day, nobody knows except me (the Father)… and Noah.”
Quite to the contrary. In Matt. 24:36 Jesus even freely admits that he does not know and that indeed, no one does except the Father. But, and this is what is cause for alarm, your leader has convinced you that Jesus’ words have now been overturned and that you all now know the day when heaven and earth will pass away. There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the Bible, that indicates ANY of Jesus’ words would be overturned or excepted at a later time, much less just Matthew 24:36. Indeed, consider verse 35, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”
Again, I understand your leader’s reasoning. He has persuaded himself (and others) that God’s Holy Spirit has made new revelations available to him, and that what was true in the Apostolic generation may not be true now. Nevertheless, I have to ask: “Where does this line of reasoning stop?” Jesus also said that “No one comes to the Father except through me (Jesus).” How would you answer a person who came along and said, “Well, that was then, but this is now, and today salvation can come through Muhammed, or the Mormons, or Buddha or Richard Dawkins or a Mr. Camping. And I know this because the Holy Spirit revealed to me, and I have a new understanding of Corinthians and other biblical passages, but you don’t get it because you are darkened in your thinking and God has sent you a delusion.”
I suspect you would not be taken in by the deceit. Which is precisely why I question your credulity when it comes to Mr. Camping.
I am not here to poke-fun at your group or insult you. Indeed, I am compassionate for your cause. To be honest, I hope you are right and Christ does return on 5/21/11. My heart is elated at the prospect. Nevertheless, I trust God’s unedited teaching in the Bible, not Camping’s creative license. Camping’s approach to the Bible is questionable, and the mere fact that other groups have attempted to use it as a cosmic doom calendar (with embarrassing results), should give you pause as to how much you merge your faith in Christ with your faith in Mr. Camping. How many times must he be proved to be a false prophet before you will cease to give him your allegiance?
I have little doubt that I will be able to convince you otherwise, but I plead, indeed I beg of you, that when May 22 comes and absolutely nothing has happened according to Camping’s predictions, that you finally walk away from him, but not that you give up your faith in Christ or that you lose your hope. Faith in Christ is NOT the same thing as believing in Mr. Camping’s mathematical black-box.
Thank you for listening.
-C. Lambeth
Hello C. Lambeth,
Just to let you know Mr. Camping is not a leader of anyone, he would be the first to say I am no one, do not trust what I say Read the Bible! He is a very humble and faithful Bible teacher. Most of us have done our own Bible studies and have come to the same conclusion of Mr. Camping, it is just that he is a very public figure that is why many say he is a leader to anyone that understands the Bible as he does. But again as I stated at first, he would be the first to say he is a leader of no one. It is just what he reads and understand from the Bible he must proclaim because God commands him to do so from the Bible.
Sound the Alarm!
Vicki
C Lambeth,
Your assumption is that Harold Camping is the leader of anyone who believes in the validity of the Biblical calendar. Unfortunately, our conversations cannot be fruitful as you have concluded that this information is derived from Harold, and those of us who understand that Jesus knows and has always known everything are just following Harold Camping’s teachings without seeking truth in the Bible for ourselves.
As you do not believe the Biblical calendar is from God, you cannot understand the examples God gives us that points to judgment day. God gives us many examples from his word that assures us that are seeking truth that indeed judgment is coming on May 21 2011. I can assure you that if you searched, you will find more examples that tie in beautifully to God’s Biblical calendar.
You do not have to listen to Harold Camping to know that God’s judgment has come upon the church. It is written all over the book of Jeremiah, it is described in Revelation 1 and 2, and it is evident in the words that are preached behind the pulpit.
You have no faith. You believe in words but not in action. People with the same mind as you some how disregard the Biblical calendar, but believe 33 AD was the time of the cross, and 587 BC was the destruction of Israel, yet have no basis for understanding either of those dates.
May God open your eyes to the truths of his word.
Adrian Thompson
I disagree with your assessment that 5/21 “is part of the Gospel message,” and I think that when we marry the two together too closely, it could have drastic repercussions for people if May comes and goes without event. For if we confuse our faith in Christ with faith in Harold’s teachings, what will happen if those teachings are proved to be farcical?
The Day of Judgment is bigger than Harold Camping and his teachings, and there are a lot of things I do not agree with him on. However, May 21 is from the Bible, and there are none of the below options that I can choose from. All I can ask is that you continue to read the Bible and pray.
God bless you,
Adrian
May 21 2011 is not from the bible like lambeth says you are following campings teachings none of you have your own minds to actually read the bible and see that no where in the bible says may 21 2011 is rapture day or doomsday.
Adrian,
Ok, I am willing to concede the possibility of what you claim (that 5/21/11 is from the Bible, NOT camping) IF you can honestly tell me if you, or anyone that you personally know of, came to believe that May 21st 2011 would be the day completely independently of Harold Camping’s teachings?
-CL
If you’re asking if I came up with May 21, that is a big no. Did I hear this from Harold Camping, yes. However, all things are to be searched out in the scriptures. Did I come to the same conclusion as Harold on May 21, yes.
If you expect me to have been looking for the date before I heard him say it, then that’s not possible, because I wasn’t looking for it. Did I understand the judgment of the New Testament church independent of Harold, yes. Did he provide Scripture that supported this that I used, yes.
Adrian Thompson
Adrian,
Thank you for your honesty. You say that 5/21/11 came from the Bible (not Harry Camping), but as I suspected, no one seems to have arrived at this date independently from him. Everyone who has taken up his belief uses the same formula that he developed, but his is a very selective and very stretched formula/ interpretation. How do you know that you are not being deceived (not just by the date, but by the entire formula)? The whole thing seems so convoluted. If only one piece of the puzzle is miscalculated, the whole thing falls apart. Yet so far you refuse to even come to terms with what it might mean IF Camping’s formula is wrong. I just don’t know how you have come to such enormous faith in one man’s teaching and “just-so” formula. Faith in the date formula is not the same thing as faith in Christ. Surely you would agree?
Thanks for the conversation,
-CL
CL,
I am graciously going to end our conversation.
You have a preconceived notion that my understanding of scripture is within the framework of Harold Camping’s teachings and formulas.
As you have already established your ground work to address any comment I may make regarding the Day of Judgment, you will have to wait and see if you are right or if God’s word is right.
Adrian Thompson
I hope we can type again in the aftermath of May 21. Maybe that will buy me some credibility with you?
Sincerely,
-CL
We Can Know Group,
So it has been made clear to me that you do not consider Mr. Camping to be your leader, although all of you are faithful adherents of his preaching and teaching and have allowed his initial “discovery” of the date 5/21/2011 to rally you to the same cause/ biblical interpretation(s). Tell me, which one of you arrived at the date of May 21, 2011 without ANY input from Harold Camping? Pardon me, but I remain unconvinced that he has not become your spiritual “leader.” Nevertheless, I appreciate the effort at clarification.
Now, is it possible for any of you to address any of the other parts in my recent (longer) posting? The fact remains that every other modern individual or group who has attempted to make the Bible a doomsday calendar has had their work tested by time… and they have failed. They have employed VERY similar reasoning and interpretive frameworks, methodology and Bible verses as you have. And all was to their embarrassment, and to the waste of credibility and many resources that could have actually done some good.
As I have suspected from the beginning of my engagement with you, I doubt that I will be able to reason with you very effectively. Nevertheless, as one who cares deeply about the Body of Christ and one who cares for each of you who are sincere followers of Jesus, I ask that you reflect upon how absolutely convinced you are about 5/21/2011. Knowing your level of commitment to that date, I ask, if you are capable, to consider what will happen to your faith in Christ when nothing of significance happens on May 21. When you are disappointed and feeling disillusioned, I want to remind you that Christ has not failed you, but only that you have misunderstood the message and purpose of the Bible. It was (and IS) never intended to function as a cosmic countdown calendar. This is foolishness to you now, but it will be made clear as the end of days does not come crashing in when you say it will. I want you to remember my messages to you on this discussion group, not so that I can gloat and say something childish like, “I told you so,” but rather so that we can discuss what a genuine (and better) biblical interpretive framework looks like in the aftermath. I have no condemnation for any of you. I have no words of ill or contempt for you either, but as much as you are convinced of the (beginning of the) end of the world on 5/21, I am convinced that your understanding of the Bible is in need of significant adjustment.
That is the (friendly) line in the sand. Either you are correct, or I am correct, and time will test our understanding. On May 22 (or sooner), I look forward to continuing our dialogue. May you have peace that transcends all understanding.
-C. Lambeth
Lambeth,
You read the phrase “knoweth no” in Matthew 24:36 and then you dumped all the qualifiers (e.g., BUT, IF) in the immediate context. But when we apply the qualifiers we discover that God is using the “days of Noah” to teach us about two groups of people: (1) those who knew the time (2) those who “knew not.” Jesus is not teaching us that He does not know the time nor is He teaching us that all true believers will not know the time. The context clearly states that unsaved “knew not” because they refused to hear the warning given by believers like Noah.
Mt 24:36* But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37* BUT as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39* And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Moreover, you don’t understand that Christ is coming as a thief “IF” man is not watching. And “IF” you are not watching your house will be “broken up.” This language indicates that the thief comes to destroy the unsaved. So, if we don’t apply the qualifiers to the phrase “knoweth no” we will conclude that Christ is coming as a thief to everyone–including the Son Jesus, who is God. Of course, that notion derived from strong delusion.
Mt 24:43* But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
The real truth is, the unsaved don’t want to know anything about judgment. They don’t want to know about the 1290 days/2300 days of the abomination of desolation. Yet, Jesus commanded us to READ the book of Daniel in order to understand these things. All church teachings about false dates are part of the strong delusion. These dear people reason amongst themselves but they all agree on one thing–no man knows the day or hour because Christ is coming as a thief in the night. They preach that Jesus is not coming in May 2011 because we are in a time of peace and safety.
So, yes, you are right Christ is coming like a thief in the night. You cannot know the date even as the people outside the ark “knew not” until the flood came. This will be the mind-set of the unsaved when the Son of Man comes.
Darrell
Darrell,
Just for the record, your assessment that contemporary church leaders don’t preach about May 21 as the end of the world “because we are in a time of peace and safety” is mistaken. Any reasonable assessment of the world today indicates danger and unrest on most levels. I worship with my church /community on a regular basis and I have never heard a pastor announce that we are presently in a time of “peace & safety.”
But I agree with you that actual church leaders are not preaching Jesus’ return on May 21. But this is because of 2 reasons:
1) there is insufficient evidence, reason and biblical texts to indicate otherwise.
2) It doesn’t particularly matter when Christ returns if his people are living faithfully.
In response to the rest of your previous post, it seems that you are forcing the text to reinforce your own theory rather than letting the text speak for itself. I didn’t drop any “qualifiers” because there are none to drop. There is absolutely nothing in the Matthew passage in question that indicates that some people will know when the end is ushered in. The reference to the flood in vv. 37+ is not to point out that Noah “knew” or focus on him at all, but rather that the world would be taken by surprise. I see no part of this pericope indicating that somebody really would know (besides the Father that is).
In fact, if Jesus really DID intend to communicate that absolutely NO ONE would “know” the end of time other than the Father, how do you think he would have communicated that? Apparently his telling us in plain language is not enough? You will hopefully see what I am talking about on 5/22.
-CL
Lambeth,
Of course, you cannot see the connection to Noah’s knowledge of the time of judgment–it does not fit your eschatology. I heard one fella teach that Noah did not warn millions of men, women and children that they were about to be drowned by a global flood in 7 days. Sure, they saw Noah and his sons building a giant ark for 120 years but they insist these folks knew nothing about Noah’s dates.
Now, of course, the unsaved knew about the dates God gave Noah just like you know about May 21. But instead of pleading for mercy, all of these folks scoffed at the dead-line. In that sense, people like yourself are “willingly ignorant” about the flood as it relates to judgment day. But the believers “know this” connection because God commands us to “be not ignorant.” In other words, when we read Matthew 24 we will go back to Genesis 7 to understand the full context. Likewise, after reading Matthew 24:15, we will go back to the book of Daniel to understand the abomination of desolation. But all these things are hidden from the unsaved–they are “willingly ignorant.”
2 Peter 3:3* Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4* And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5* For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7* But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8* But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Now, I suppose there were groups of folks standing outside the ark telling Noah “I’ll see you in 8 days.” But on the 7th day all the scoffing ceased. And, all the fine speeches were forgotten. Likewise, on May 21, the scoffing of those in and outside the church will end as they behold the rapture of God’s elect. At that moment, these dear folks will cry “LORD LORD didn’t we prophesy in thy name?” But God will say “I never knew you.” Oh no. He does not mean He did not “know” everything about you. Jesus is God. He knows the day and hour of His coming. But He never planned to save those “left behind.” All of these truths are being rejected by the unsaved today. But on May 21, 2011 the unsaved will be given 5 months of torment ponder these things.
Fear God and give glory to Him,
Darrell
Darrell,
I might say the same to you: “Of course, you cannot see the connection to Noah’s knowledge of the time of judgment–it does not fit your eschatology.”
You are so convinced that you are right that your recent post indicates that anyone who doesn’t believe like you do is “unsaved.” Now THIS is so predictable as to be almost unworthy of a reply. Nevertheless, here I am. Do you have a handy way of overturning Jesus’ instructions that we not judge others too? And does your soteriology really depend so much on human knowledge rather than on God’s mercy? Being saved is not about believing the right thing about everything. Rather, salvation is believing that Jesus Christ is sufficient for all my/our sins, and that to accept him is to accept his gift of grace. Jesus’ instructions in Matthew 24 is for us to be prepared REGARDLESS of when he comes, especially since he repeatedly communicates that no one knows when that will be (See Acts 1:7 too). But again, you have gerrymandered his words to make him say almost the exact opposite of what the text states. I had forgotten that sincere believers could be provoked to do such things, but I do not question your salvation, for that is not my place. What I do question is your “understanding” of the text, and thus far you seem unable to defend it.
What you have still failed to make clear or explain is how, precisely, you have used general verses about knowledge like this to justify your specific convictions about 5/21/11. Even more specifically, how have you been able to convince yourselves that Jesus’ specific words and teachings are overturned in Matthew 24:35-44 because of some general, non-specific references to knowledge at the end of time? I am not going to stop asking this question.
Nevertheless, my most important question remains: What will happen to your faith in Jesus when May 22 arrives and the numbers game is revealed for the chimera it is?
-CL
CL,
Re: “Being saved is not about believing the right thing about everything. Rather, salvation is believing that Jesus Christ is sufficient for all my/our sins, and that to accept him is to accept his gift of grace.”
I agree that knowledge is not a cause of salvation. Knowledge is a fruit of salvation. After we become saved, God will guide us to worship Him in spirit and truth.
However, if one believes we must “accept Jesus” to become saved it means one is following a works gospel that will lead to judgment. In John 15:16, Jesus says we did not chose Him but He chose us. As a result, God’s elect will bring forth the fruit of salvation.
John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you…”
So, we see that it’s not just about May 21. The unsaved of the world reject many truths that come from the Bible. I pray that God will open your eyes before it’s too late.
Fear God and give glory to Him,
Darrell
Darrell,
You are changing the subject. Is this to avoid the obvious question that you cannot seem to answer (where is the evidence for May 21 and what will you do if you are wrong)? But lest I ignore your protest, let me clarify: Accepting a gift simply does not make one responsible for the gift or the gifting itself. This is hardly a works salvation. Nevertheless, would you feel more at ease if I said that the only thing we can “do” to be saved is “not prevent God from saving us”? Or would you prefer to say that we are saved by “rejecting” Christ? That makes no sense at all.
But back to the central topic: The Bible is simply not intended to be ANY kind of doomsday calendar. When we try to make it one, we miss the central message: to know Christ and make him known, and to love God by loving people.
But listen carefully, I am not saying that Jesus will not return. Since I believe Scripture, I know he will, but also according to the Bible, I must recognize Jesus’ authority when he says that “nobody knows except the Father.” I am amazed that Matt. 24 has been so twisted and turned to shift the focus from being ready for Christ’s return at ANY moment to inept efforts at calculating the precise day WHEN he will return so that THEN we can be ready. Such an interpretation is a giant adventure in missing the point.
I have no doubt that you will not grant me any credibility… yet. But will you give me ear on May 22 when you’re all still here? Hey, that rhymed. Go me.
-CL
The group forum you are posting on [through Yahoo] is for Family Radio supporters. It has become evident that your are not one. We allowed you to make your point. But we don’t want to continue arguing. So, for now, we’ll just have to wait until May 21. I will not approve your posts unless you have honest questions about verses in the Bible.
Mr. Lockridge,
It is truly the fearful and uncertain who refuse to allow dissenting opinions a voice. I had no idea that your faith in your conclusions was so weak. Ironically, you are censoring the most honest questions I have. That no one on this forum has been able to answer me is somewhat telling.
I know that I have no credibility in your eyes at the moment. I understand this very well, but will you extend a little grace and make a bargain with me if things do not unfold as you anticipate on May 21nd of this year? It seems that May 22 is the only thing that will help you hear me, so this is my proposal: IF May 22nd arrives and you have not been raptured or your expectations have not been met, THEN will you have an uncensored and friendly conversation with me wherein you might be open to the truth of my perspective? I do not question God’s sovereignty or his absolute Lordship, but I think you and your doomsday friends have seriously misunderstood the purpose and intent of the Bible. I’d merely like to discuss a better way with you, and I think you will find it refreshing in the aftermath of your post-5/21/11 disillusionment.
Alternatively, if May 21 unfolds as you presently believe it will, then continued conversation with me will likely be impossible (unless of course I am saved by grace too), and you will be released from our agreement.
Is this a fair proposal that you will consider?
Thanks in advance,
-CL
Your question has nothing to do with the scriptures.
My questions have everything to do with your understanding of the Scriptures. Do you presume that you understand the perfect Word, perfectly?
What will happen to your faith in Christ when you are proved wrong? Surely you must at least consider this as a possibility, unless you believe that you are perfect indeed.
Come on, Darrell, you can answer this, can’t you?
-CL
Yes. I believe my understanding of May 21 is perfect because it found in God’s word. As for faith, my salvation does not depend on my faith but rather the “faith of Christ.”
Darrell Lockridge
Darrell,
You still haven’t answered my questions about HOW you have come to May 21 as THE date or what your response might be if it comes and goes without incident. Can you do so?
-CL
lambeth also you do not seem to understand all the verses Darrell and others have given and the few I gave about who Christ is. Do you or do you not know for a fact that Jesus Christ Savior Lord, King of King’s, Lord of Lords IS God??? That the Holy Bible is all His JESUS CHRIST LORD SAVIOR GOD’s HOLY WORD!!! If you do not understand this then you will never understand why we understand that May 21, 2011 is the Day God will take His elect from off this poor sin sick world and then starts the Judgment. After May 21, 2011, I and no one that are of God’s true elect will be here to answer your very sad, very poor question of “what will we tell you on the 22nd of May 2011″ nothing we will not be here!
VES,
Yes, I affirm that the Bible is God’s word. Can you hear me now?
My question was not if you believe that the Bible is the word of God but if you know for a fact that Jesus Christ Lord Savior King of King’s, Lord of Lord’s is GOD! That is my question because all kinds of people will say OH yeah the Bible is God’s word, but again my question to you is,
Do you know for a fact that Jesus Christ Lord Savior, King of King’s, Lord of Lord’s is God?
VES
Yes, Vicki, I know that. Jesus is savior. I haven’t really responded to your question until now because it had little to do with the other issue involved (your theory that the world will end on 5/21/11). See, you and I are brother and sister in Christ. We affirm Jesus’ absolute lordship… together. May that be the starting point of our friendship.
Now, will you please answer the questions I have posed to you? I am not out to get you. I am here to both understand and (politely) challenge you as a co-beleiver in Christ.
Here’s a recap from my side of things:
“I do not dispute that the justification granted by Christ (alone) makes us “righteous.” But neither am I under any delusion that our sanctification is complete in our current state of affairs. We have not yet been “clothed with the imperishable.” None of us are morally perfected in the present just because we became followers of Christ. This is the classic paradox of perfection in Christ both “now” AND “not yet.”
You have still ignored my request to elucidate the connection between the knowing discussed by Paul in Corinthians and your claim to “know” the end of the world (especially at the expense of overthrowing of Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:36). I do not dispute knowledge in general, but where in the Bible is the specific case to connect the paradox of “now” and “not yet” in regards to the knowledge of the end of the world? I see it in discussing “righteousness,” but not with the type of “knowledge” that you proclaim. The burden of evidence here is upon you, not me. I still take Jesus at his word in vv. 36 (and everywhere else). I see no part of this narration in Matthew indicating that somebody really would know (besides the Father that is). In fact, if Jesus really DID intend to communicate that absolutely NO ONE would “know” the end of time other than the Father, how do you think he would have communicated that? Apparently his telling us in plain language is not enough? You must address this. Can you?
Sincerely,
-CL
No we are not brother and sister in Christ because we have a very different way of Reading and understand the Bible. You set here in judgment of us and we tell you many truths from the Bible and you say they have nothing to do with the issue at hand when what we all have stated has every thing to do with how we are to understand the Bible! You do not understand that God wrote the Bible in parbales and that Christ spoke not that He did not speek in a parable.
Jesus Christ Is Lord Savior God the everlasting Father, and the Word of God, the Whole Bible is a parable and thus most people do not understand the word of God because God says Christ expounded all things to His disciples only not to all the other people, God is the only one that can give truth from His Word the Bible and it only comes from His Word the BIble, because like the verse in John 10:6 says they, that is all the people that are not of the true saved of God can not and will not understand the Bible because it is a parable, in other words it is an earthly story God has given us with a spiritual, Heavenly meaning. If you don’t understand this then I can not give you any help to understand why we believe that May 21, 2011 is the Day God will take His elect from off this poor sin sick world and that day will start Judgment Day.
You choose to ignore the Bible verses given that we all have given you that tell the truth that God will tell His true saved what He is going to do and when. Many of us have taken great pains to give you Bible verse after Bible verse but you just do not understand the truth of the Word of God!
No, we will not be friends, you may think I am some dumb kid that I do not know much about the Bible but the only thing I can trust is the Bible, and by God’s great grace and mercy I have been able to read, listen to and study His Wonderful Word the Bible. I do not agree with you at all and I see no reason to continue any conversation with you because you are blind to the Wonderful truth of God that Jesus Christ Lord Savior is God the everlasting Father and He will tell only His true saved His elect what He is going to do to this world and when, but you can not see the truth we share with you!
I pity you.
May 21, 2011 the elect God’s true saved will be taken off this poor sin sick world by Jesus Christ Lord Savior God the Everlasting Father the then starts Judgment Day!
Your blood is not on our hands they are on your own!
VES,
I find it unfortunate that you are more interested in hostility and the differences between us rather than what unifies us. I must also protest your belief that all of the Bible is a parable. Some of it is, yes, but not all. It is comprised of a host of genres of which parables are only one type.
And it seems that you are not listening, for I do not pass judgment on you. In fact, to the contrary, it seems that you and Darrell are far too eager to pass judgment on ME. Your ability to turn things around is astounding. And I still can’t help but notice that you have made absolutely zero effort in answering my question on knowledge. Can you not see that the longer you refuse to address this, the more enfeebled your position becomes? Surely you can answer my questions, no?
I am afraid that you may not be capable of hearing me given your current interpretive framework, but I will try anyway. I acknowledge the Trinity, that Jesus is God, as the Holy Spirit is God, as the Father is God. Yet I also accept the Bible as God’s word, and that he used it to faithfully and accurately communicate to humanity. In that word, Jesus as God incarnate clearly has given up some of his divine prerogatives. This is clear in Luke 2:52 as well as Philippians 2:6-8. Read them please. It also means that Christians should take Jesus at his word when he tells us that he doesn’t know something, rather than letting our biblically unsupported theories overturn what he clearly spoke to us.
Throughout the Bible, we see that Jesus is God as the Father is God as the Spirit is God, and yet the Father is not the Son is not the Spirit. They are One, triune, together in accord and power, and yet mysteriously they are both one and not the same. This is the great God of paradox, who does not feel any pressure to make everything nice and tidy for his people or human reason. We must accept the 3 in 1 nature of the Trinity, that they are the same and yet different. You seem to be troubled by the unknown (as all doomsday Bible interpreters are), but you don’t have to live like that. Be at peace and know that it’s okay if you don’t know everything about God. If you cannot accept this, then you are the one who does not see the whole picture. Even so, salvation is not dependent upon human knowledge, but God’s mercy as given through Christ, and his grace is sufficient for us both. Because of Scripture, I pass no judgment or condemnation on you, can you extend the same courtesy to me?
I have little hope that you can hear me now, but please, let’s talk on May 22. If you are still here of course. 
-CL
Lambeth doesn’t seem to know the many verses which make clear that the Elect WILL know the time of the End; He doesn’t know anything about the history of Christendom either – that Martin Luther and Sir Isaac Newton both set a date for the End [both apparently said Christ would come in circa 2,000 AD] and MANY godly Bible scholars set dates – many Puritans [“the high water mark of Bible understanding”], the Founders of the Presbyterian Church.
Lambeth doesn’t even realize that God has ALWAYS told His Elect in advance of His plans for Judgment; Real Bible scholars have known for hundreds of years that the timing of the End is in Scripture; the timing of the 1st Advent is in Scripture, and was known by the Wise Men, Simeon, Anna, etc.… Lambeth doesn’t realize that Reformers [Harold Camping was 500 years behind the times here] knew the spiritual meaning of Bible numbers, and published books of this subject.
We can all feel sorry for Lambeth, and pray for him, that he might study the Scriptures, and see the Bible references about the End at familyradio.com, wecanknow.com, the-latter-rain.com etc., etc. Only by studying the Word can he have Life and Truth, and he’ll then avoid nonsensical personal attacks on other professing Christians who have diligently studied the Bible.
Tom Holt
Tom,
Have you considered how many of these biblical scholars have gotten their predictions right? Ooops.
And I find it interesting that you think that “by studying” I can have life and truth. That sounds an awful lot like the works salvation that I received a tongue-lashing for earlier.
Also, even if God did ALWAYS tell his people about judgment in advance (as you say), how can you impose a rule on God and say that he ALWAYS will?
Can’t you see that you’re digging in the dirt, trying to shake answers out of the Bible that aren’t there? As for me, I rest on the words of Christ, not some hack Bible interpreter who thinks he knows more than Jesus. We’ll see how sure you (and Mr. Camping) are come May 22.
Maybe I’ll get a fair hearing on May 22, if you have the guts to admit you’ve made a mistake. Time will tell.
-CL
Lambeth,
You haven’t even noticed that some date setters HAVE been correct…the “hack Bible interpreter”, Harold Camping, has been personally or professionally associated over 52 years [this week] with 25+ public Reformed
Bible teachers [all of them]…I doubt you can name any of them…yes, you’ll be proven wrong on May 21st, only because you err, not knowing the Scriptures…
Tom Holt II
Tom,
And how many times has your leader (I mean non-leader) proved himself to be a false prophet when predicting the end of the world? How many times will it take before you realize he is leading you in the wrong direction? I’m going to make a prediction of my own, but you can easily prove me wrong if you have the guts.
Are you ready?
You said that some of these Bible Calendar guys got it right. Which ones? What dates? And what does Harold Camping’s associations have to do with anything?
When May 22 comes and you’re still here wondering what happened, you will make some sort of excuse for Mr. Camping, and without skipping a beat, you will start digging in the dirt again and try to come up (or buy in) to the NEXT crackpot theory and numbers game, and this cycle will repeat.
Time will tell.
-CL
Lambeth, Other than being a scoffer [promised by Scripture, at the End] and name caller [a method of 8 yr olds] Can u share ANY Scriptures that support your view? I’ll listen patiently…just what are you angry about? 500 people on the Latter Rain Group for 11 1/2 years that know the Bible? Several of these 500 are brilliant Bible scholars – tested for YEARS.…
th
Holt,
Once again you have not answered my question. Let me try again: How many times has your leader (I mean non-leader) proved himself to be a false prophet when predicting the end of the world? How many times will it take before you realize he is leading you in the wrong direction?
I am not angry. You don’t have that kind of power. I just feel compassion for you because you seem like such a sincere follower of Jesus. I want you to step into the light. I suspect it will take May 22 to push you one step closer to that edge.
-CL
Lambeth – you have a false Gospel —the fact that you don’t know the time of the End is sad, but your beliefs that you can save yourself by accepting Jesus as your Savior further reveals your soul is in great danger; I seldom mention this, but I’ve been a Presbyterian Pastor, held my Dr’s credits in Greek and Hebrew from one of the world’s finest seminaries [means nothing if one is not saved] in the 60’s…May God be Merciful to you, a scoffer, who knows almost no Scripture—yes, Harold Camping published “1994?” in 1992—did you fail to notice the Question Mark? did you read this book?
….TH
Tom,
So you admit that H. Camping was totally off base in imagining that 1994 might be the year of Christ’s return? Why are you taking his latest prophecy about May 21, 2011 so seriously?
And I’m not sure what your previously being a Presbyterian pastor has to do with anything, but surely you are aware that there are other (non-Presbyterian) interpretive frameworks and doctrines that are equally supported by Scripture. Would you condemn any who do not think or believe exactly as you? Is salvation a matter of knowledge but not God’s grace. Surely you don’t believe that. There is the text, and there is our understanding of it, but they are not always the same. You believe you have the Spirit. Well and good, so do I.
Let me try to re-communicate what I am saying: I do not doubt Daniel 12:4 or the Bible, or God’s free, unmerited gift of salvation (at all). What I doubt is your understanding of the Bible. You say I do not know Scripture, and yet you pervert it yourself. I am boggled, but no longer surprised.
But despite my repeated questions, what you and your kind have failed to make clear or explain is how, precisely, you have used general verses about knowledge like Daniel to justify your specific convictions about 5/21/11. How do you even know that “yom” means a literal 24 hour period in the early pages of Genesis? The entire calendar may well be built on a false assumption. Even more specifically, how have you been able to convince yourselves that Jesus’ specific words and teachings are overturned in Matthew 24:35-44 because of some general, non-specific references to knowledge at the end of time?
My most important question remains: What will happen to your faith in Jesus when May 22 arrives and the numbers game is revealed for the deception that it is? Will you try to concoct a new doomsday calendar, or will you finally free yourself from the chains of a false doctrine and Harold Camping’s teachings?
-CL
Lambchop—
If I cared about you, I’d want you to understand the Bible’s true Salvation plan…
you are 100% blind to the truth of the Bible….
I cannot help you [God can choose to]…
T.
Tom,
You are so full of Christ’s love and grace. It is refreshing.
Now, will you continue to ignore my toughest questions? Thus far, you’ve merely fought against an argument I didn’t make with the whole “salvation by works” thing. Really. Let that go.
Also, earlier you mentioned that you held “Dr’s credits in Greek and Hebrew from one of the world’s finest seminaries.” Which school did you attend, and are you aware that the Hebrew word for “day” (yom) sometimes takes on a figurative meaning and does not always mean a literal 24-hour period of time? Wouldn’t a dynamic understanding of “day” have significant implications for Harold Camping’s carefully orchestrated Bible calendar timeline of doom?
-CL
You asked about Harold Camping’s question of Jesus return in 1994:
There has never been a time when the true gospel as gone forth into the world like it is today. I now see why we could not do this in 1994. The fact is, we simply did not have enough truth to boldly bring the gospel because we had just come out of a 2300-day famine of hearing the word of God According to Daniel 8:12, it was a time when the truth was cast down to the ground. As a result, we did not understand the cross of Christ nor did we understand the payment (i.e., hell/death) that Jesus endured before the foundation of the world. But now that God has opened our eyes to many truths (annihilation, May 21 and then 5 months of torment) He has also opened many doors for us to preach.
Darrell,
So you also admit that Harold Camping’s book devoted to Jesus’ return in 1994 was completely off-base. And yet, instead of coming to terms with the possibility that H. Camping simply has no idea what he is talking about, you make excuses for him (and yourself) and merely return to promoting a new doomsday “prophecy” for May 21, 2011? What might happen if his latest prediction is also revealed to be false? Will you make more excuses for him or will you finally turn your back on his bogus teachings? I have repeatedly asked this question, and thus far, none of Camping’s students will respond. Will you? Can you?
-CL
God set up the book “1994?” To happen for a very good reason and that is, to bring out the scoffers out of the wood work that are discussed in 2 Peter 3:3-5. Matthew 24:48-51. There was an apparent delay, Hab. 2:3, Matthew 24:48-51, Matthew 25:5 This word “tarry” in this verse means “delay” It is not to late to cry out to God for mercy to see truth. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17. Just pick up the word of God and ask God to give you a desire to hear His word and a desire to be obedient to His word. Who can tell? Maybe God will leave a blessing behind. Today is still the day of salvation.
However, it is fast running out believe it or not, ready or not, the Lord Jesus will return in judgment May 21. Don’t take the “wait and see” approach, your playing with fire that is, literal fire. For God is a consuming fire.
Thank you.
Gary Higgs
Gary Higgs,
It sounds as though you are also making excuses for Camping. Is there anything he might do or say to make you stop trusting him?
And you say I am “playing with fire that is, literal fire. For God is a consuming fire.” But I have to ask, would you have me believe that God is “literally” heat combustion, or have you considered that this is a descriptive metaphor and not “literal” in the least?
-CL
C Lambeth,
This will be my [only] written communication with you at this time.
You keep asking about May 22 and what if we are wrong, but there is no IF about May 22nd arriving, it will arrive. However, it will be the second day of God’s Judgment as He pours out His wrath upon the whole world. Emailing and other everyday activities will no longer continue. The horrors of His Judgment will supersede all else.
I have contemplated many teachings from many churches and other sources over the years. I have listened to Family Radio since 1972. In God’s goodness He has shown that Family Radio is His ministry. He has raised it up to proclaim the true gospel, His Gospel, in this last time.
If on May 21st Judgment Day does not begin and the Rapture does not happen then God is lying to us. But we know that God cannot lie. It will happen as He has proclaimed in His Word.
Thanks again,
Alan
Mr Camping is lying to you sir not god. God is not a lyer you guys are. Oh and by the way what happened.
Alan,
If the rapture does not initiate on May 21, it will mean nothing more than that Harold Camping has lied and that you have been taken in by his deceit.
It will not mean that “God has lied” in the least. This sort of thinking is EXACTLY why I have decided to engage with Camping’s followers, for you have put him on equal footing with God. Can you not see the danger in your allegiances: “If Camping is wrong then God has lied”???
Holy cow, Man!!!
I am boggled by this, but I will respect your decision to not communicate with me until May 22, then I wonder if you will have the courage to admit that you and Camping were wrong? I’ll leave that up to you.
in peace,
-CL
Please refrain from asking what we’ll do 5/22, your ignorance enough is contemptable, but your condensending false humility for our hope that we dust ourselves off and re-think our doctrine is a joke. You have no idea what it is you are asking, and I choose not to entertain you and your loaded question. Let me tell you what is in my heart.
5/21 is THE day of Judgement.
5/22 will be a horror show.
IT WILL HAPPEN!
So lets focus on the bible as we both agree is the only authority.
what happened can you explain why or you guys will have a secret meeting and come up with a bull excuse, “oh it did happened but it was spiritually and now we will set a date octobor 21 2011 the earth will vanish. Because of people like you there are people who actually got hurt, people who killed themselfs, people who dont believe in christ anymore, people who will laugh at true christians and when the time comes and christians are to warn everybody no one will believe or have faith in them.
ITB,
Speaking of bravado and arrogance, can you not even hypothesize if will you have the guts to come back and discuss with me on 5/22 (if you are here, of course)? Use your imagination and entertain my “loaded question.” Would you come back and discuss, or would your pride prevent it?
Also, if you don’t mind, I do have a few more questions. Would you please be so kind as to tell me how Mr. Camping has developed (discovered?) his numerical values and their respective definitions? He makes much of the numbers 5, 10 and 17 and the definitions assigned thereto, but I’ve not been able to locate his explanation. Would you take the time to condescend to one who is unsure of your formulas?
Thanks in advance,
-CL
Didn’t you read what he said? Stop asking about what people are going to do on 5/22. It is a total annoying waste of time.
You are speaking without knowledge. Camping’s books are FULL of information on this subject. You can’t even open a random page without coming across it. Stop acting like you are an expert when you are CLEARLY NOT.
If you guys can’t even hypothesize about 5/22, what does that say about you? Is this some sort of faith test whereby if you even contemplate it, your “friends” will turn on you, call you a “scoffer” and say you’re not a “true believer”?
Here, I’ll go first: If 5/21 comes and the real followers of Jesus are raptured (and I’m not one of them), then I will certainly freak out and start to question everything I thought I knew about the Bible and its author. It will be a transformative moment and paradigm shift, even if one that is too late. I’ll wail and moan etc. No really, I probably will.
Now, your turn. What will you do if you’re wrong?
And can you point me to the place where Camping assigns the definitions to numerical values. Please? Your bantering isn’t particularly helpful on this issue, but I’d like to know.
Thanks in advance,
-CL
Here are the numbers’ meanings:
5= Salvation & Judgment
Jesus fed five thousand people with five loaves of bread (Matthew 16:9). The five thousand people represent those who are saved by partaking of the Bread of Life, which is Christ.
The five wise virgins of Matthew 25:1-13 represent those who are ready to meet God (the saved). The five foolish virgins represent those aren’t ready to meet God (the unsaved who are still under the judgment of God).
10= Completeness
The number 10 can be found very frequently throughout the Bible, but it is often found as a factor when other numbers of spiritual significance are featured. For example, the 2,300 (23 x 10 x 10) days of Daniel 8:14 are a reference to the first part of the Great Tribulation. The number being featured here is 23, which God uses to point to judgment. However, there are times when the number 10 is used by itself and in those cases, if it has spiritual significance, we find it used in connection with completeness
17= Representation of the Kingdom of God
Joseph was 17 years old when he had a dream that his family would bow before him (Genesis 37:2-10). Joseph was a figure of Christ, as is also evidenced in this passage where we read that Israel loved Joseph (Israel typifies God’s people). Joseph’s family bowing before him foreshadows Heaven when all believers will worship Christ.
When Israel was about to go into captivity, Jeremiah paid 17 shekels for a piece of land in Israel (Jeremiah 32:9). This foreshadowed the Israelites’ return to Israel, which in turn was an illustration of God bringing His people to Heaven.
But a key part to our knowledge of May 21 as the date is 2Pet. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
For we are following the biblical timeline that on the 7th day (7000 years) the creation will be brought to an end. This is all very clear for those who study and have been shown by the spirit.
Thanks to latter rain for producing such well articulated and simplistic explanations.
So, let me get this straight. The presence of some numbers (albeit recurring numbers) in the Bible have somehow lead your leader to the notion of assigning them thematic definitions, multiplying them together and then squeezing them into a metanarrative that predicts the end of the world. Did I get that right?
I think it’s a mistake, but let’s just assume for a second that God really does want us to calculate the date. How did Camping know to multiply these numbers rather than add, divide or something else?
How do you know that he got the definitions right or that he focused on the right numbers in the text?
Is he guiding the numbers or are they guiding him? How do you “know”? Ever seen the movie “The Number 23“? Fascinating.
How do you know that the “1000 years like a day” in 2Pet. 3:8 should be taken literally one way but not the other, or that this phrase should be taken literally at all? Surely you are aware of what a simile is and that the Bible often makes use of such literary devices. And even if we force it to be literal in one direction only, do you apply this consistently? Do you say that the 6 “days” of creation were really 6000 years? Why impose this on some parts of the text but not all? Have you considered that while the text says of Adam in Gen. 2:17 “…for in the DAY that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die,” but that Adam goes on to live for several hundred years more? Could it be that the text’s use of “days” and “years” does not always align with our usage of these terms in contemporary English?
And what specific verses in the biblical text indicate that the general “knowledge” at the end of days would lead to the specific knowledge or calculation of THE day of judgment?
What specific verses indicate that some of Jesus’ words would later be overturned and that he didn’t really mean what he said in Matt 24 (or at the very least that his words ONLY applied to the original audience, but not those who came thereafter)?
And as I asked early on in this thread, where does this logic reach its limit? Is Muhammed now ALSO the way to the Father?
Your mathematical formula is so precariously balanced that it seems even the slightest miscue could topple the entire paradigm. How have you come to place such astounding trust in Mr. Camping, and what will happen to your faith in Christ if that trust is misplaced?
I’ll stop there. Thanks for telling me about the numerical values.
-CL
BECAUSE ITS ALL ABOUT THE CONTEXT! Thats how we know when to understand numbers as spiritual or as literal.
the six days of creation were six eveneing mornings, pretty focused context to lead us to the correct conclusion.
We can see that when God told Adam he would die, that it was a spiritual death, how, by comparing scripture to scripture.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
THE CAUSE OF ORIGINAL SIN.
God imparts the very first Law of God to Adam and Eve. The breaking of God’s perfect law, requires God’s perfect judgment:
[Gen 2:17]”…for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” As a result of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve broke God’s perfect Law and suffered God’s perfect judgment; which is SPIRITUAL DEATH.
The context of 2nd Peter is to focused to be elusive now.
2 Peter 3:3-8 Knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which now exist are kept in store by the same word, reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
So, we can easily see the unfolding timeline and formula:
May 21, 4990 BC: EARTH DESTROYED BY WATER.
7 DAYS x 1000 YEARS = 7000 YEARS.
4990 BC + 7000 Years = AD 2011 (There is no 0 BC, ADD 1)
May 21, AD 2011: JUDGMENT DAY.
May 21, 2011 – Oct 21, 2011: 5 MONTHS OF TORMENT after which the entire universe will be destroyed by fire!!!
[Gen 7:11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened on May 21, 4990 BC.
God shortened the full 8400 days (23 years)(spiritually 7 days; the complete time) of Tribulation, where nobody would have been saved, to 2300 days (spiritually 3.5 days; the shortened time) for the sake of the elect, because God still have those he predestined to salvation which were still not born yet.
I’m sorry, but I can’t make heads or tails as to which verses are addressing which questions. Even if you listed the verses after the questions as I posed them, merely quoting Scripture doesn’t prove much, especially when taken out of context.
I suspect that we see VERY different things in the exact same verses. Reference Matt 24 if you will. This is the epistemic distance between the text and human understanding of it. The Bible asserts that it is God-breathed, but, (contrary to many of Camping’s followers) nowhere does it say that human understanding of it will be perfect. So can you pick any of the questions I asked and answer it with an explanation attached to a verse (or two) that you listed? That would be more helpful.
Thanks,
-CL
NO, i answered most of your questions and stated my position in detail. I do not have time to make it purdy right now. Please read it top to bottom carefully. Then you will see the context, its not that difficult. I am not going to repeat myself before you address what I wrote. that is a sure sign of misdirection and distraction. Address some of the responses i gave you, and then ask another question. please do not disregard my post, it is very frustrating.
2nd, provide a verse in Math 24. I don’t have time to figure out what you mean.
question, then verse.
my post was disheveled, however i am short on time and I wrote it quickly. however please try to read it through, because I addressed most of the questions you posed in the post before and then explained what they mean. just take 5 min to read it. I will elucidate what is confusing if you ask something specific.
also give me the verse in math 24 you are speaking about.
thanks,
1) Most of the verses you quoted don’t seem to address any of my questions directly. I don’t know how else to express that to you, especially if you refuse to offer an explanation.
2) Matthew 24:35-25:13 is what I refer to in this case.
3) If all you can do is cite passage after passage, I think I see your arguments for what they are. As I have said time and again, I suspect that the only thing that will help you see the bankruptcy of your interpretive framework will come on May 22. Right now, you can’t seem to hear me. Maybe our conversation will be more fruitful then. But…
4) If we can start with just one question, let’s start here: “How did Camping know to multiply these numbers rather than add, divide or something else?” What Bible verse(s) point to this unequivocally?
-CL
OK,
I answered this as best I could.
BECAUSE ITS ALL ABOUT THE CONTEXT! Thats how we know when to understand numbers as spiritual or as literal.
If then, after we understand the context, and lets say for example, you were curious about the spiritual meaning of the time frame between 33 Ad and the end of the world in 2011 Ad
33 to 2011 is 1978 years
then 1978 (years) multiplied by the number of days in a single year, 365.2422, will give us a number of 722,500 days total.
then you ask, ok, so what?
well you are curious about SIGNIFICANT numbers correct. So we already established, as most denominations in the world will agree upon, the spiritual meanings of numbers.
5*10*17
x
5*10*17
= 722,500 days.
this works out to 5(which is the word of God the bringer of life unto life and death unto death)
x
10 (signifies completness of whatever is in view
x
17 (salvation)
and it is doubled, because it is established and will shortly come to pass.
Gen 41:32 And the dream was repeated to Pharaoh twice because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
This is one example of when we multiply numbers. These are not prime numbers, these are significant numbers.
let me get back to you about the verses in math. meanwhile, what is the next question?
ItsIntheBible,
Gauging from from your earlier post, I can’t help but feel like we lost cabin pressure. First of all, when it comes to your alleged Bible Calendar, I am not “curious about SIGNIFICANT numbers” at all. That is your game, not mine. Even though I have been tempted to play it with you, with numbers 7 & 12 in particular, I know that I would be doing so only as a farce to make a point, and I can’t lend any credence to the clandestine numbers hunt. At least not in good conscious, anyway. So for now I’ll just work with the numbers you’ve supplied.
So, after quoting a variety of verses that merely include the numbers you set out looking for, you simply stated that you have “already established” the “spiritual meanings of numbers” and that “most denominations in the world will agree upon [them].” I’m sorry, but I contest your assumptions about 5, 10 and 17, and I need you to support your claim that most denominations agree with your assessment. Can you do this?
Finally, the formula itself is difficult for me to take seriously, for your explanation presupposes the answer. You have said something to the effect of, “So, you want to know why the end of the world will be in 2011? That’s easy, 2011 minus 1978 is 33!”
Yes. Yes it is. Well done. Your execution is accurate, but the formula itself is cyclical (read: invalid). It’s like saying that Harold Camping’s formula is perfect because it is perfect. The problem here is more about the formula than it is about the numbers. After all, Mr. Camping can seem to operate a calculator. But if you’ve ever encountered a reverse-split in your portfolio, you know that numbers can be manipulated to say just about anything. After all, 3011 minus 2978 is also 33. My problem at the moment is Mr. Camping’s formula.
And THEN it gets interesting, for even if I momentarily give you the benefit of the doubt and play nice with #5, #10 and #17, by your own explanation (that you say Genesis 41:32 clearly teaches), we are to “double” the 5x10x17 number. But that yields 1700 (not 722500), and if we apply the same mathematical formula as Harold Camping has been “inspired” to use, we divide 1700 by the days in a year (365.2422), which equals 4.6544. Now we can triumphantly proclaim to the world that the parousia will be midsummer in the year 5. Maybe there is something special about #5 after all. And that this is several decades prior to Jesus’ ministry and resurrection is irrelevant, for God can do anything. The math (proof) is irrefutable. Smile.
To say little of the issue that there is no reason to assume that Genesis 41 is actually an allegory for the end of days or the fact that the numbers 5, 10, and 17 do not make much of an appearance anywhere in Joseph’s story as dream interpreter, your group has somehow (mistakenly?) decided not to take the text seriously by “doubling” the figure (multiplying it by 2), but rather by “squaring” it (multiplying it by itself).
What are we to make of this? Will you now create more excuses for Harrold’s formula and re-work a new explanation whereby you are instructed not to double but to square the special numbers that you have so much confidence in, or will you let in a ray of light and ask yourself, even if only for a moment, “What if I’ve put faith in the wrong person/ ideas/ and understanding of the Bible?”
Even if it’s only privately, or as late as May 22, sooner or later you must come to terms with this last question, and when you do, it is imperative to know that it’s okay if you are wrong. God will still be God and Christ will still be Christ, and you will still have Christian sisters and brothers around the world who love you and accept you, warts and all. You can dust yourself off and still move ahead as a passionate Jesus-follower, but I ask that you do so without all this Bible Calendar Doomsday baggage. There’s no reason to return to the vomit when it is revealed for what it is.
-CL
Lambeth, I said that, at least I, will not waste my resources answering your may 22 question. Yet you asked anyway. Your not listeneing.
I also gave you some pretty detailed responses to many of your questions. If it was not coherant then ask poignant questions relating to the subject, yet you dismissed it as if that is the final say. You had no follow ups, you had no arguments to the contrary except how you felt about it. So I can discern how you debate something, and it is not in my interest to waste my time. So i spend time answering questions when I feel like it when i have time.
So ask a question, and then try to follow up on the respons as I would with you. otherwise, it is ..boring. and dont waste time with may 22. it has nothing to do with anything relating to the bible, now does it. And I believe this with all my heart, so I plan to be with the LORD may 22, so that is your answer.
Diddy, suggested reading campings books so you don’t waste time asking questions which the answers are readily availble. Also because it is obvious you really do not understand what it is Camping teaches though you try to sound like you do, so it is just lame. You are a false authority on nothing but your own opinion. So please, if your interested, read his material, bone up on the subject, understand these doctrines from the bible and then you would have more intelligent questions.
“It’sIntheBible,”
Perhaps my doctrine does need to be adjusted. I freely admit that this is always a possibility. This is why I am asking questions, and I apologize, but I need you to remind me of which one(s) you think you have answered thus far. I understand your proclivity to merely quote Scripture, but surely you can see that this alone is insufficient to make your case. I have access to a Bible too, but it is clear that we see different points within the same texts. I need you to explain the rationale behind your interpretations. Perhaps the verse in Genesis (41:32) would be a good place to start. First of all, why is it that you square this number instead of doubling it as the text says about the dreams? Even more importantly, why do you think it is appropriate to apply this verse to a calculation for the end of the world in the first place? And what do you suppose the point of this story was for every other generation that lived and died prior to 5/21/11?
Perhaps those questions are more than you can address, and we can come back to them later, so let’s start with something simple, like your earlier assertion about the special numbers 5, 10 & 17. Putting the equation’s circularity on hold for a moment, you have claimed that most denominations agree with your assessment of these numbers’ meaning. To be honest, I think you are stretching things a bit, so can you please support your statement with some evidence? Surely you can do so.
Thanks in advance,
-CL
Look, “10 x 2″ is not in view, because a two is not doubling, it is multiplying by 2. they mean different things. something repeated means that if it is the correct context, we can apply the verse in Gen to understand that God has established something and will bring it to pass. If the bible alows it, then it is applicable
When we multiply and not add or divide, is because two numbers next to each other, with no other mathematical signs, and the context does not point us to adding or dividing, then by default, two numbers are multiplied.
Especially significant numbers, these are the root numbers that make up a whole number.
10(5)(17) repeated 10(5)(17) is multiplied, that is the mathematical sign in view. any number in parenthesis next to another number will be multiplied.
Sorry, im not a math guy my explanations will not suffice, however I do know enough to recognize a math application.
ITB,
You said:
“10 x2 is not in view, because a two is not doubling, it is multiplying by 2. they mean different things.”
You’ve demonstrated mathematical chicanery for the second time, but it doesn’t appear that you are aware of your mistake, so let me try to explain again. Any number times itself is “squaring” or taking that number to the “power of 2.” 10 x 10 is squaring. 10 x 2 is doubling. This really isn’t up for either of us to debate. It is an established fact of present understanding, and I have no other way to approach this with you. You’re not arguing against me at all at this point.
But secondly, what evidence can you supply that the Hebrews at the time of this text’s authorship operated according to the same mathematical sequencing as do our modern contemporaries?
And how about those numbers (5, 10 and 17)? What evidence do you have to support your assertion that “most” other denominations recognize them?
-CL
FINE, you have a point, i am not dogmatic about multiplying, i always said it depends on the context. the reason why 5 10 17 is multiplied is because 1978 years is in view.
and 5 10 17 5 10 17 are the significant numbers which with 1978 years breaks down into , which is 722,500 days.
that is how many days are in 1978 years and that breaks down into 5 10 17 5 10 17.
For this reason alone, we do not multiply x2 or add it to itself, because 1070 days is not 1978 years. Its a matter of discernment.
and 5 10 17 are spiritual significant, and it is amazing how all this works out.
For reasons why i already mentioned 5(10)(17) is doubled by itself because we are trying to EQUAL 1978 years.
So the context is important.
The end.
ITB,
Amazing. You get out exactly what you put in.
The circularity of your reasoning is astounding. On one hand you admit that the formula doesn’t work as expressed by Scripture, yet you clutch ever more tightly to Camping’s formula because of your prior faith commitment to 5/21/11. As I stated early on, your convictions guide your biblical “understanding” rather than letting the Bible speak on its own terms. The numbers fit because you make them fit. There is nothing in the text that speaks of your ill-conceived equation. It seems to be little more than a human invention, and not a very good one if you ask me.
And I’m still waiting for your defense of your assertion regarding numbers 5, 10 & 17.
-CL
And we’re still waiting for you to read ten pages of Camping’s books to get the information yourself. ITB did a reasonable job of priming it for you, now get off your chair and read. We’d all like to hear your criticism of the source material.
Didymus,
I think your “waiting” is misplaced, for I don’t think you ever asked me to read “10 pages of Camping’s book.” I apologize if I missed that. However, I have indeed read through various sections of Harold Camping’s “We Are Almost There” and found them all to be significantly lacking in terms of biblical scholarship, interpretation, sound argumentation and even basic English conventions. I am amazed that this man has any sort of following whatsoever, much less that otherwise seemingly intelligent people are willing to equate his misguided ramblings with the very words of God himself.
If you honestly believe that ItsIntheBible did a “reasonable job” of explaining the convoluted formula to me, then I am not sure what else we have to talk about. In short, the formula is a complete mess.
However, if you would really like to hear my “criticism of the source material” it is this: The “source” predicting 5/21/11 as the beginning of the end has nothing to do with God or the Bible. Rather, it is a delusion of a disoriented man, Harry Camping, whose formula is an episodic “just-so” story that starts out with the very number its strained mathematical chicanery is specifically designed to produce. There is nothing objective about it. It is pure fiction and possibly little more than the nefarious invention of a well-meaning but ultimately enfeebled and confused man.
Can you tell me of even one other person who has arrived at the same formula and date as Harold Camping independently from Harold Camping? Have you considered all of the other misguided religions, sects and cults who based their entire worldview on the writings/ teachings of a single person? Take your pick: Siddhartha Gautama, Muhammed, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson. The trajectory and value of some of these men was quite different, but what unites them is that they started movements that were grounded in little more than their own inspiration and creativity (at best) and delusional and demonic influence (at worst). In that sense, Harold Camping is no different than any of these fellows. In a nutshell, that is my problem with the so-called “source” material.
-CL
So, I have a new question for anyone who is a devotee of Harold Camping’s teachings:
Given the excuses made for his past predictions total failures, is there anything that would prove H. Camping wrong in the future to the point where you finally stop listening to him?
-CL
CL,
Your question (Is there anything that would prove H. Camping wrong in the future to the point where you finally stop listening to him?) seems to suggest we should apply a standard of “falsifiability” to Mr. Camping! This is a ridiculous man-made worldview first made up by a SCIENTIST named Karl Popper. Man is not to be trusted, and particularly not SCIENTIFIC men! Let us relegate the anti-Biblical tenants of observational deduction to the scrap heap of history where they belong. The Bible contains revealed knowledge and any conflict between the Bible and fallible Man must be decided for the Bible — Ex. 34:6, John 1:14, 2 Tim 3:16, Gen 1:16.
May His will be Done on Earth as it is in Heaven,
-James N. Therast
James,
I am having a difficult time understanding your post. We live in a world where God has blessed us with powers of perception. This doesn’t mean that those faculties are always right, but neither does it suggest that they are always wrong. What it does mean is that we indeed have criteria from which we can measure the truthfulness of various propositions we hear.
If I say that tomorrow the world will literally end, and then it does not happen, any reasonable person would “deduce” that I was either a prankster, delusional, confused, misled, deceitful or a combination of all of these. That is all I am asking that we consider when it comes to Harold Camping and his May 21 prophecy. What will our response to him be?
You offer that we not hold Harold Camping accountable for (potentially) teaching false things by suggesting that we “relegate tenets of of observational deduction to the scrap heap of history.” But I have to ask: would you have us pretend that Harold Camping was right even if his predictions about May 21 are totally incorrect? It sounds like that is the case you are making, but that is called insanity, so surely you can’t mean this. Please help me take your meaning.
Thanks in advance,
-CL
Hello CL,
to answer your question, yes, if Mr. Camping now stated that God was talking directly to him in a dream, tongue or vision [I would stop listening to him].
Not to attack you, but if Mr. Camping is wrong about May 21, does that mean we should also stop believing in the Trinity, Christ being God, creation taking 7 literal days, life eternal only for the elect, Scripture being written in parables, that Satan will rule over the churches as the Bible teaches, that women are not to be pastors, elders or deacons, that God doesn’t speak to us in dreams in this day, or that we dead spiritually and cannot come to God on our own, He does all the work in saving us since Mr. Camping teaches these things also?
Where do we draw the line? A woman called OF tonight, 5/11, and asked will Mr. C finally admit that Christ taught literally and not in parables if May 21 comes and goes w/o incident. In other words, speak smooth things unto us, do not tell us the hard truth, speak lies. She is the tip of the iceberg. Many of the callers are not only upset about the date, they don’t hold on to many of the Bible’s true doctrines.
The issue is not May 21 alone, it’s the whole Bible and how some are teaching from it. If there was no May 21 in view those who do not believe in the Sunday sabbath would be complaining about Mr Camping’s views. The charismatics would complain. Some would demand Mr. Camping admit divorce is legit under certain circumstances. Those who don’t believe in the Trinity would still be upset with Mr. Camping. The list of what people would still complain about is endless.
Louis Gustave Shirley
Louis,
Thank you for your reply, and for your admission that H. Camping could indeed do something to make you stop listening to him. Is there a reason that you did not include a potentially failed May 21st prediction as a bridge too far for you to cross with Camping? I think that if anything would set you free from him, May 22 would qualify.
But to answer your other questions about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, the answer is: “maybe.” I say “maybe” because Harold Camping’s interpretive and teaching errors go well beyond his May 21st proclamation. But I must also answer “no,” for certainly there are some things that even Camping has not been able to muck up. The Trinity, Jesus being fully God and that the gift of salvation starts in God alone come to mind in the list you provided. Everything else in your second paragraph (and I do mean everything) is more the result of a particular, ultra conservative interpretive framework than it is the clear teaching of the biblical data itself. For an example, one must consider Romans 16:1 where “our sister Phoebe” is referred to as a “deacon” of the church.
I know exactly what you would say in respose, for your King James Version translates the Greek word for Deacon (diakonon/s) as “servant,” and indeed the Greek word can be pressed into that meaning. But why was “servant” selected here, when the Greek term for a subordinate servant regularly appears as “doulos,” but not “diakonos”? Could it be that the translators in the 17th century KJV misunderstood the Greek nuances, or perhaps they were already committed to the idea (like Camping) that women are inherently unfit for ministry leadership? The Greek says diakonon in reference to sister Phoebe, not doulos, that much is nonnegotiable.
As I have said before, none of us come to the biblical text as blank slates. We bring an entire set of presuppositions and biases with us, and oftentimes we make the Bible fit our prior notions rather than letting IT transform US. That is my primary gripe with all of this May 21 business. The date has been offered up by a single individual (who has proved himself wrong over and over), and those who have bought into it/ been indoctrinated can make any Bible passage dance to the tune. To be fair, we must both concede that this could mean one of two things: 1) They are actually right, or 2) they are disconnected from reality but into their idea far too deeply to consider any other possibility.
In the case of May 21, I believe the second option is the more viable of the two, for counter your assertion, I have looked at many of the Bible verses May 21sters enlist for their cause, and I find them all to be stretched a bit thin and open to alternative interpretations that do not include advocacy for constructing a cosmic doomsday countdown clock. I affirm the Bible is God’s perfect word and that Jesus is God’s Word incarnate, but I do not believe that any of us understand that word or Word perfectly, and it is ALWAYS a mistake to think that our interpretation of the Bible is the only thing it can possibly mean and that everyone else everywhere is 100% wrong wherever they disagree with us. Various denominations, sects and cults have made this mistake over and over and over, all to their own ultimate embarrassment or destruction.
To come full circle, I can see that neither of us is likely to give up on our respective interpretive frameworks this side of May 21st. But that day will radically shift one of our interpretive methods (at least it should if we are paying ANY attention at all), so all I ask is that we can continue our conversation in the aftermath of May 21 if that day turns out to be like any other. It will prove one of us right or wrong. It’s that simple.
For my part, I actually hope Christ returns on May 21st. I am confident in him, not me.
-CL
I don’t know what you have such a hard time with Camping about. Is it 1994? That is a non-issue for me. I’m sure calvin made adjustments as he fine-tuned his doctrines. I have learned a lot from him, but realize he’s just a man and not perfect. The church is dead and the timeline is accurate. The fact that May 21 lands exactly on the 17th day of the 2nd month is proof enough for me (plus all the other time info).
11 days.
Rick
Rick,
You still didn’t answer the question. This is exactly what I am talking about. IF Camping is wrong about 5/21 will you stop following his teaching?
-CL
I think there are really more important things to consider than considering my reaction to something that hasn’t NOT happened yet. Like, what do we do with the mountain of evidence that clearly points to a future catastrophe that may just be happening NEXT WEEK!!! Whether I believed it or not I would still be on my knees begging for mercy, and not worrying about what someone else’s reaction will be if the event didn’t happen.
What is this vendetta against Camping??? If this didn’t happen I serious wouldn’t be worrying about Camping. I see it in the bible. My Masters Degree brilliant wife sees this in the bible. It’s only by Gods mercy that he reveals this to His elect.
What in the world will you do when all of this comes to a head and the clock winds down at that precise moment God has chosen???
Then…everything will be clear.
Rick
Rick,
Can’t you see that you are completely avoiding the question? This is cause for concern, for what I am reading between the lines is that you are so committed to Camping’s teachings, that you cannot even consider NOT following him even when he is proved to be totally off-base over and over and over.
Consider what your response might be? I keep asking what would make you stop believing in Harold Camping and you keep changing the subject. I am left to consider that your implied answer is, “Nothing.”
What else is there to say?
I have no “vendetta” against Camping per se, but I do have a passion for actually understanding the message of the Bible, and that message is NOT that we construct an imaginary doomsday countdown clock.
Thank you for your engagement. I hope you reply again.
-CL
You will find out the truth soon enough. And let me allow you to move past at least one thing:
If May 21 comes and goes like any other day I will wake up on Saturday morning, make my kids breakfast like I always do, humbly make some phone calls, eat some crow, and then spend how ever long I may have watching my kids grow up, enjoying popcorn and a movie with my wife, and giving my employer 100% of my effort. I’d also be on my knees begging God for mercy…like any other day. Life would go on. It’s as simple as that.
Now you can’t say that no one who believes this has answered your question. Why that is important to you I don’t know, but oh well. I hope you’re also on Jehovah’s Witness, Catholic, 7th Day Adventist, Prespetarian, and Atheist message boards asking them how they are going to fair once they figure out they’ve been misled by false teachers.
May God bless you friend.
Rick
Might I suggest that, “you will [also] find out the truth soon enough.”
Your recent answer is the straightest one I’ve gotten so far, so thank you. But you still left out what your followership of Harold Camping would be like after he is proved wrong again. Will you finally be free of him or will you continue to look for Bible Calendars that aren’t there and push that propaganda on friends, family and total strangers?
As for my issues with atheists and Jehovah’s Witnesses (JW), at least they (seem) to have the wisdom not to go making speculative predictions about the date of the end of the universe based on the ramblings of a single confused man. As for Catholics and Presbyterians, I am uncomfortable with making broad and sweeping generalizations about them. I try and engage with people on a 1 to 1 basis instead of making strained overstatements. But some of these people (just like true believers in other denominations) are amazing and godly people whose relationship with Christ is solid. Others, like the self-proclaimed “Presbyterian pastor” here (Tom Holt II) are as lost and befuddled about Christ and the Bible as anyone I’ve encountered in atheist, JW and Mormon circles.
Finally, why do you always feel the need to “beg God for mercy”? Do you think that this will save you or that you can have zero confidence in Christ’s sacrifice? This seems to be another key misunderstanding of H. Camping’s doctrine/ teachings.
-CL
I have a question, to those that do not believe May 21, 2011 is the day, God will take His elect from off this poor sin sick world, and then starts Judgment Day for 5 months, what are you so scared about? And don’t say you are not scared about it, because you waste so much valuable time trying to prove May 21, 2011 is wrong, then it must really bother you? If it did not bother you then you would not spend any time worrying about it, and you would go about your daily lives doing all the things you like to do, and not waste valuable time on trying to put down this truth. Also another question, what are all of you so angry about, If you do not believe May 21, 2011 is the truth, then why would you waste time on being so very angry?
Vicki,
Vicki,
I sincerely apologize if I have contributed to the perception of “being angry.” I assure you, on a personal level I am not troubled by Harold Camping’s predictions in the least, and I am not angered by his forecast in and of itself. However, what does concern me is what will happen to the faith of sincere and good hearted believers (like you) who have confused Harold Camping’s interpretations of the Bible with what the Bible says for itself. I have seen more than a few signs touted by H. Camping’s followers that say, “The world will end May 21, 2011. The Bible Guarantees it.” But this represents a very subtle and very destructive misunderstanding, for once again it confuses a particular interpretive framework OF the data (the biblical text) WITH the data itself.
The Bible does not often interpret itself. The human element and interpretive framework is unavoidable, and this is exactly why we need a community of believers and pastors, teachers and apostles etc: so that we can discuss the text and help each other understand it and apply it better. We all engage in this, yet many of us come to very different conclusions even when we sincerely believe that the Holy Spirit is assisting us. How do we negotiate these differences? Thus far, my experience as a person who is trying to understand Harold Camping and his followers, is that most of you act as if anyone who doesn’t already have your same interpretive framework in place is merely a blind fool, or “scoffer” as you seem to be so fond of saying. Cults do the same thing I might point out, but my position has always been that there are indeed some things that are worthy of a Jesus follower to “scoff” at, and that a (non)prophet who consistently has his predictions disproven and discredited over and over falls within this category. After all, which one of us does not rightly “scoff” at the Mormon “prophet” Joseph Smith or that of Jehovah’s Witnesses or Islam’s “prophet” Muhammed?
But back to my concern. It is this: if you confuse your interpretation with the Bible itself and then tell people that the “Bible Guarantees” this or that, and then “this” or “that” does NOT happen, what have you FORCED them to conclude about the Bible? That’s right, they are left with NO other choice but to “deduce” that the Bible is a worthless piece of antiquated trash fit only for the insane and manipulative. Which one of us wants to be responsible for a person walking away from us (and the Bible and God) with that kind of opinion??? I am not afraid for me at all, I am afraid of the damage that Harold Camping’s teachings are doing to the Body of Christ itself. The Bible doesn’t guaranty May 21, Harold Camping does. And his words will be tested (as will mine). I am afraid that is the only thing that can help you see my point.
your friend,
-CL
CL,
I’m sorry to hear that you can’t see these things. I hear your “concerns” about May 21 not being THE DAY and I empathize with you. I have friends and family who also either can’t or refuse to see regardless of what or how many proofs are provided. I think that you, like so many other detractors are fixated on the man Harold Camping and never really address the scriptural proofs being offered; you’re missing the forest through the trees.
I count endless references to Mr. Camping and another half dozen backhanded compliments aimed at Mr. Camping and we that believe as he does, all without addressing the real issue at hand; the buffet of scriptural evidence that points to May 21st as being the day of judgment. I believe you’re doing what so many church types do when faced with doctrines that don’t comport with what they’ve been trained to believe, that is, kill the messenger!
Lets try to forget about Mr. Camping for a minute, what do you do with the biblical timeline?, the number patterns?, the end of the church age doctrine?, the examples of judgment? (e.g. Noah’s flood, Nineveh, Sodom & Gomorrah, Jericho etc..) not to mention all the physical signs: the apostate churches and the false gospels they hold to, the gays, the rampant evil in all walks of life. Ignoring these things will not make them go away, at some point you’re going to have to address these things and I’m afraid time Is not on your side. I’ve yet to hear any detractors show strictly from the Bible, red herrings aside, how these things are not so.
Here’s what I hear over and over and over again ad nauseam, regardless of the evidence: 1994, No one knows the day or hour, Harold Camping is a false prophet. No scripture to prove their claims, never anything of substance, just a lot of arm waving, name calling and finger pointing! At what point do we forgive and move past Mr. C’s prior doctrinal errors and focus on the here and now? If the Bible allows for reproof & correction shouldn’t we also? John 8:7 …He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. This Isn’t about one man.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Daniel
Dan,
Thank you for your reply. I am also sorry that you can’t see how you have been manipulated by Harold Camping and his teachings. I know that you and other like-minded individuals say over and over that Camping is not your leader etc, but the fact remains that the prediction of May 21st originated nowhere else and has never been arrived at independently from H. Camping. Whether you realize it or not, you are following him. Therefore he IS, in fact, leading you. Nevertheless, I am fairly sure that Harry is a nice and well meaning gentleman, so I intend only to attack his befuddlement and its damaging repercussions, but not the man himself.
Now, let’s talk about this so-called “buffet” of Scripture that you refer to that is allegedly in support of Harold Camping’s prediction:
1) The biblical timeline is irrelevant if we are faithful to God in season and out. Even if we did know when the end would come, it shouldn’t change how we live (if we are already living faithfully).
2) The so-called “end of church age doctrine” is dictated by nothing other than your faith in a particular interpretation of the irrelevant biblical timeline, rather than by any objective evidence concerning ALL churches in ALL places in our present world.
3) The “number patterns” are nothing more than your selective focus. You focus on the numbers that can be assembled in a certain way to give credence to your preconceived notions about timelines etc. and ignore those that do not.
4) The examples of Old Testament (OT) judgment are irrelevant to the case for May 21. Repeatedly it has been said by you fellows that God ALWAYS gave warning of impending judgment and doom in the OT. Even if we assume that is the case, you have gone too far by constructing a law/ rule that you feel God MUST obey, namely that he ALWAYS WILL do this in the future. You are beyond the Bible at that point, or can you show me a text where God promises he will ALWAYS give such warnings in ALL times and ALL places in the future? Even if you can do that, where is the text that says God will have his followers construct a just-so mathematical formula to figure out that date of doom instead of telling them plainly like he did with the prophets of old?
5) The physical signs: You seem to think that all of these “evils” are new under the sun, but they have been happening for millennia, as have wars, earthquakes, civil unrest, volcanoes, floods etc. No church I have ever been to has taught a “peace and safety” doctrine, because the church is (and ALWAYS has been) very aware that the world is messed up.
As I have said before, none of us come to the biblical text as blank slates. We bring an entire set of presuppositions and biases with us, and oftentimes we make the Bible fit our prior notions rather than letting IT transform US. That is my primary gripe with all of this May 21 business. The date has been offered up by a single individual (who has proved himself wrong over and over), and those who have bought into it/ been indoctrinated can make any Bible passage dance to the tune. To be fair, we must both concede that this could mean one of two things: 1) They are actually right, or 2) they are disconnected from reality but into their idea far too deeply to consider any other possibility.
In the case of May 21, I believe the second option is the more viable of the two, for counter your assertion, I have looked at many of the Bible verses May 21sters enlist for their cause, and I find them all to be stretched a bit thin and open to alternative interpretations that do not include advocacy for constructing a cosmic doomsday countdown clock. I affirm the Bible is God’s perfect word and that Jesus is God’s Word incarnate, but I do not believe that any of us understand that word or Word perfectly, especially Harry Camping, and it is ALWAYS a mistake to think that our interpretation of the Bible is the only thing it can possibly mean and that everyone else everywhere is 100% wrong wherever they disagree with us. Various denominations, sects and cults have made this mistake over and over and over, all to their own ultimate embarrassment or destruction.
I can see that neither of us is likely to give up on our respective interpretive frameworks this side of May 21st. But that day will radically shift one of our interpretive methods (at least it should if we are paying ANY attention at all), so all I ask is that we can continue our conversation in the aftermath of May 21 if that day turns out to be like any other. It will prove one of us right or wrong. It’s that simple.
For my part, I actually hope Christ returns on May 21st. I am confident in him, not me.
blessings,
-CL
I am SO GRATEFUL for the understanding God has given us! These people won’t have to tolerate us too much longer, hopefully God will give many more understanding in these final days.
Through Harold Camping’s teaching I learned about the end of the church age, learned about God’s elective salvation plan, learned about the biblical reasons for marriage with no possibilty of divorce, learned how to study the Bible as the Bible dictates me to, learned about Judgment Day…the list goes on and on.
My deepest gratitude goes to the Holy Spirit my Counselor for opening my spiritual eyes and ears to truth, to God my Father for choosing me to salvation from before the foundation of the world, to Jesus Christ my Saviour for paying my sin debt in full from before the foundation of the world, and to Harold Camping and eBible Fellowship for being used of God mightily to tell the world of this most precious gospel.
-Loren
Loren,
Have you ever wondered that people who sign up for Calvin’s hardcore double-predestination doctrine of “election” ALWAYS believe that they are one of the specially chosen elect? I find that… interesting. Don’t you?
-CL
Never noticed. I started in Calvary Chapel in 1976 and after really studying the Bible in the late 1980’s arrived at Calvinism as more in truth. I thank God always that he saved me from the mainstream Christianity that has SO MANY deceived.
I believe 100% in election but because of the sins in my life, it leaves me in doubt that I am one of the elect. Many of my “friends” on Facebook say the same thing and I also read of unsureity of others in the forums.
What I do see in my “Christian” relatives is that they are SURE of salvation because they did their alter call and confession of faith. That’s what scares me, they ALWAYS think their saved because of some action on their part.
-Loren
Loren,
Thank you for your reply. I have met many people (in church and out) who subscribe to a similar understanding of predestination/ election as you do, and without fail, ALL of them believe that they are the ones elected, and that others are not. I just find that a little too convenient, not because the phrase is in the Bible, but because everyone who buys into Calvin’s understanding/ teaching of it “knows” that they are “in.” With few exceptions, Calvin’s brand of predestination did not exist before the 16th century. That is cause for concern.
And this is where I think that “Family” Radio and hardcore predestination churches have done some of the most damage: Their narrow understanding of what “election” means, for they use it on one hand to say that there is NOTHING anyone can do to be saved, but then on the other hand, they are always telling us to accept this or that doctrine (think Bible timeline, May 21 or that the churches are dead), or that we “know” a person is part of the “elect” if they model behaviors x, y & z, but that we have to continually “cry out to God for mercy.” Their hardcore predestination/ election theology is not only inconsistent, but it never seems to consider the idea that those who were called “God’s elect” in the Bible were chosen not so that they would be ushered into heaven regardless of their choosing and will, but so that they would be God’s missionaries and ambassadors to the ends of the earth, SO THAT OTHERS (not already elected) might hear the gospel, respond to it, be saved by grace alone and thereby be “grafted in” to that same election. The doors to the Kingdom are always open, never shut or locked (Revelation 21:25). Is this not why we take evangelism so seriously?
We need not look any further than the big picture of the Jews’ “election” in the Old Testament and the fact that the gentiles were later “grafted in” to God’s divine purpose to save. The fact remains that “accepting” a gift is not the same thing as “creating” or “giving” that gift in the first place. If you gave me $10,000 and I accepted it, I would be insane to proclaim, “Look what I accomplished! I am responsible for this $10k! Me, me me.” Everyone would know that you were the giver and it was your accomplishment, not mine. All throughout the Bible, both Old Testament and New, God calls on people to respond and accept his message to them, because it means something really big (salvation), but not because they earned it or merited it. In that sense, you can be absolutely confident that Jesus’ blood is sufficient for you. That’s why we unequivocally call it “Good News!” rather than “awesome information if you’re chosen but the worst possible data ever if you’re not.” Does that make sense?
We can be confident in Christ, not because of what we have accepted, but because of what he has given.
-CL
Hi CL,
I can only speak for myself. I believe in election and I HOPE I am one of the elect. There is selfishness and sin in my life that keep me from having any assurance that I am one of his elect. I humble myself before God ad seek is mercy only because see that in the example with the Ninivites and, for me, I would rather have HOPE than to follow “eat, drink, and be merry because tomorrow you die”.
There are too many verses that teach election for me to deny it’s truth:
Rom 8:29,30
Eph 1:4,5
2 TH 2:13,14
Acts 13:48
John 6:37
John 6:30
John 15:6
Rev 13:8
Eph 2:10
1 TH 1:4
…and dozens more.
It is fruitless to continue on communications. If you are right about salvation, my alter call, confession of faith, and baptism in the church back in 1976 locks in my salvation, so don’t worry about me.
Thanks again,
-Loren
Loren,
Why is it that all of you chaps refuse to continue conversations with someone who doesn’t already believe exactly like you do? This may say more about how “strong” your beliefs are than you realize.
As for the verses you picked to support your 16th century notion of “election” have you considered that none of them overturn the equally viable interpretive framework of election that I described to you previously, namely, that some are selected to be messengers and envoys of salvation so that others may be saved as well?
But no, I do not question your salvation at all. That you have no confidence in Christ’s atonement on your behalf must be tough on you. But as much as this boggles my mind, salvation does not depend on our believing or accepting all the right things about everything. Thankfully, God’s grace is sufficient even for those of us who unknowingly misunderstand his word. I cannot sign on to your narrow definition of “predestination,” but I am absolutely confident of my salvation because of Christ’s work (not mine).
Will you throw out your interpretive framework and stop following H. Camping’s teachings (but not Christ’s) IF May 21 comes and goes without event?
-CL
Here we are. Seismic activity is nil so far. Judgment will probably come at either sunset or midnight Jerusalem time. If I recall correctly, some of us were entertaining this idea before Mr. Camping introduced the New Zealand time-line.
Wonderfully, God has given us a few hours to soak this in. It’s really ironic that judgment day will still come as a thief in the night to the world even though they heard the May 21 warning.
Fear God and give glory to Him,
Darrell
I have heard very inspiring stories from New Zealand. Things that can only be explained via the grace of our Savior. Things that have yet to hit the news. And may not. I believe from what I’m hearing that things are definitely under way. The Earthquake has yet to hit, but you would be amazed at what else has transpired and what will soon may made known to all. Soon His will shall come to pass for all of us. And from what I hear I may experience it soon. Love to all of you.
God Bless,
-Wes
Seeing as nothing happened in New Zealand and people are already mocking I wanted to see what people on here were saying. I definitely think this is yet another test for the believers (someone mentioned “Remember Lot’s wife.”)
My dad pointed out that we’d have to keep in mind Israel is on Daylights Savings time so it *could* be an hour later than their current noon/sunset/midnight (I think?) I mentioned someone pointed out Mark 13:35 and he also brought up “And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.” Luke 12:38.
On the one hand the rolling quake still seems more likely to me (the parable about the foolish virgins going to the wise and not having any more hope, etc.) but on the other it wouldn’t surprise me if God allowed people to mock all day long (insisting on “peace and safety”, as Darrell mentioned.)
Can’t help but be thankful that since it hasn’t begun just yet, God has given just a little more time to plead with Him for mercy and thankfully He is merciful!
May God bless many with His salvation…
~ Melissa
Hi Darrell,
Yes, you are so right, even if it is not untill 11:59pm May 21 we must still encourage each other in God’s Holy Word the Bible as we are still being tested, siffted as the chaff from the wheat! I am so very sad to hear that some are already talking of going back to the church. OH, it is just to horrible to think about going back to that place of death!
Praying with hope and reading God’s Holy Word the Bible.
Folks remember the Bible says, “when the lord of the house delayeth his coming” this is a testing point people, do not loose it now, we are so close
Vicki
It is now about 11:30am in Samoa,
That is the palce that will be the last where May 21 will be,
so there are about 12 hours still until it will be 11:59.59 pm there because Somaoa and Tonga and on either side of the international date line.
SO it could be very well, that at the last moment that it is May 21 right ther at the international is when God will start every thing, because I am still thinging about the midnight time. Just not any where we have thought.
God is tarrying, this is a test, are we going to sleep?
Are we going to start to smite one another?
NO, I say, we need to watch until the end of time!
Waiting, Praying, and Reading God’s Holy Word the BIble,
To God be all glory!
Vicki
God is testing us like never before. Im still 100% convinced we have the right date. WATCH AND PRAY!
Jason Cohen
Dear all:
There is much we must scrap. I still believe it is very possible that when May 21, is past in the last place here on earth that is when the Lord could return. Now if this does not happen I will be open to any correction. Until then, I am still encouraged. I am still watching with an intense focus. I believe God is testing us. This I believe is very possible. Will we fall away or not? For me, I am looking. Does anyone know where the last place May 21 ends? And what time that would be here in NY? Thank you.
Gary.
PS-Do not give up hope my friends.
I would like to interject that when NZST is used to establish the days of the second month (Zif), that 17 Zif STARTED at sunset yesterday in New Zealand. Accordingly, New Zealand is still in 17 Zif, while here in California 17 Zif hasn’t started. Again, this is based on using NZST to determine the days of the month relative to the moon phase. If JST is used, then the days of the second month of Zif are set back 1 day, as you will see on most secular Hebrew calendars.
Watching and praying,
John N.
For Jerusalem, Zif 17 / Iyyar 17 should have started 5/20 at even and
ended 5/21 at even (or sunset, ~6pm). I don’t see any way Zif 17 for
Jerusalem could have started 5/21 and ended 5/22. However what John N.
is pointing out is that the Biblical day, Zif 17, does not end worldwide
the same time May 21 does. May 21 ends earlier, while Zif 17 continues
on for 1 additional day longer. This can be verified by looking at New
Zealand, where, because of the timing of the New moon (lunar conjunction
for May 2011), Zif 17 doesn’t begin until 5/21 at even, and then ends
5/22 at even. What I like about this is we stick with the biblical
feast day given in Genesis 7 and don’t change over to another calendar
(the Gregorian). I realize this seems contradictory because May 21 has
been the date being proclaimed, but perhaps this was the wisdom of God
to have this date proclaimed and allow it to pass so that the scoffers
could rejoice and make merry, while the real date, the biblical date,
Zif 17, sat behind the scenes hidden from their eyes. Would it not make
for a most rude awakening for the end of Zif 17 to begin the judgment.
Dan et. al,
Don’t you think it’s time for you to finally “scoff” at Harold Camping’s nonsense as well? You’ve been deceived. It is plain as day. It’s time for you to finally kick Camping and this idea that the Bible is supposed to be some doomsday countdown clock to the curb, but to nevertheless press in towards Jesus. May your faith in God be refreshed, and may you finally turn a deaf ear to H. Camping. Surely you can see that it is time for a new direction.
-CL
Well, I’m thinking in other directions now. If nothing happens for the remainder of this day, I wonder if it’s possible that Christ could appear in a few days. Jesus tarried a few extra days before coming to raise Lazarus. I wonder if there’s any relationship there.
Rizz
I spoke with Chris McCann tonight on Facebook, and he told me “Waters came after 7 days, not on the 7th day Gen 7:10. also, 150 days waters prevail, I think as you count backwards from end of the 150th day it lands on the 18th day of monthwhich would be after 7 days..if rolling, what we thought would happen last night, will happen tonight.”
In other words look out for 2 AM EST.
Jason Cohen
I didn’t see error in most of what we’ve studied for the past several years. The one big error that I can safely point out is that the BIG sign I carried on my back and shared with thousands of people about May 21, says ‘THE BIBLE GUARANTEES IT.’
We now find ourselves in dangerous territory and should be careful what moves we make next. After May 21 it is anyone’s guess and really doesn’t matter to me. We’ve had plenty of time to check and recheck our conclusion. Once May 21 comes and goes I’ll have to reevaluate a lot of things, most importantly being my salvation. My wife and I are now most concerned about that.
Rick
The honest truth is that the date was wrong! We need to be man enough to admit it and go back to the Scriptures AND the Gospel and move on. What I do not understand is why the leaders here find it impossible to do this–it is the most God glorifying thing that could be done.
Charlie Menut
Charlie,
One aspect of the prediction may be wrong. But you and others are in no position to rebuke or admonish anyone because you’re not using the Bible as your authority.
Darrell et. al,
It’s not just “one aspect of the prediction” that is wrong, but rather the entire interpretive framework that has been (ab)used by Family Radio, Harold Camping, and anyone else who wants to fashion the Bible into a doomsday countdown calendar. If anything, today should prove to us all, that when Jesus says “No one knows,” he means it, and that we are kidding ourselves when we try to overturn his words.
When I consider all the “biblical proofs” that had been offered about May 21, or that the “Bible Guaranteed” that date, we are forced into only one of two options: 1) The Bible is false, or 2) The Bible Calendar interpretive approach is false. I think it is safe to say that all of us here reject the first conclusion, so we must accept the second one. The question is: Will we make excuses and get right back to fabricating answers that aren’t in the Bible, or will we finally let the scales fall from our eyes, finally turn our backs on Harold Camping and finally adjust our understanding of what the Bible’s purpose really is?
I have been asking that question for months, and repeatedly been mocked, ignored or not-so-subtly accused of being hell fodder. I don’t begrudge anyone for that, for I know that you were acting according to what you were “sure” was the truth. Now that this “certainty” has been revealed for what it is, will anyone be brave enough to move ahead with Christ, but without
all this Bible Calendar nuttiness?
Whether you see it or not, I am your friend and co-traveler in Christ; I just want freedom for my sisters and brothers here and want you to see the Bible with fresh eyes. Family Radio, Harold Camping and Christ McCann have made the Bible into a cacophony of confusion, and that deeply saddens me… but it need not be the final chapter in our understanding of the text. Time to shake the dust from our sandals.
Sincerely,
-Corbin Lambeth
Rick,
I hope no one was basing their salvation on whether or not they carried a BIG May 21 sign on their backs. We based May 21 on verses like Genesis 7:11-13. So, we need to carefully evaluate these sort verses to determine if we misunderstood something. Using this approach we will not find ourselves in “dangerous territory.”
Darrell
Darrell?
“…IF we misunderstood something” ?!?!?! You have GOT to be kidding me!!!
Is there nothing that could ever get you to see that your entire biblical interpretive framework is bankrupt?
-CL
We are being tested even more. We spent so much energy expecting the event to occur on “May 21”, really the Bible doesn’t say “May 21”, it says “the 17th day of the 2nd month”.It may be that the 17th is today and some are re-checking this, as there seems to be a discrepancy over when it begins, as it is complicated.
Some, it seems have given up. Keep the faith, hold fast. The separation is still going on.
Keep reading the Bible. Cry out to the Lord.
May God’s perfect will be done.
Deut. 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
What does this mean? I am really concerned. I am broken, beat down. confused. This scripture is hitting me like a ton of bricks. Is HC a false prophet? I never thought I would dare to ask this question but I must.
I have not lost my faith in the word of God. Please don’t be angry with me. I don’t need this right now.
Gail Roberts
Gail,
We are not angry with you. Where applicable, we should be angry at ourselves for having confused the word of Harold Camping with the word of God. Harold Camping HAS spoken presumptuously as a false prophet. Although I am fairly convinced that this was not his intention, he is clearly unqualified to be a teacher and we should break fellowship with him, but NOT Christ. All of us must use this moment in our spiritual journeys as a watershed event whereby we completely re-adjust our interpretive approach to the Bible and the church. Our biases and the false teachings of others can clearly warp what the Bible means. This is always a risk when we isolate ourselves from the Body of Christ (the church). Churches are full of problems, but God’s Spirit is not overthrown. Church has never been perfect, and it never will be this side of heaven, because Jesus came not for the healthy but for the sick.
And the fact is that the Bible was never intended to function as a doomsday countdown clock, but rather as the normative testimony to what God has done, is doing and will do in human history. The fact is that it simply does not matter when Jesus’ precise moment of return is if we are living faithfully and loving people because God first loved us. The end of history is this: Through the sacrifice and grace of Christ Jesus, God wins. That’s all we need to know, and that’s all we need to be confident of. The rest are details. Abandon Harold Camping and Family Radio, not God. Don’t be their sucker and fall into the same pit again. It’s the blind leading the blind.
-C. Lambeth
My brothers and sisters in Christ,
May 21 did happen 100% By the mercy of God he allowed his children to cry unto Him before he closed the door(salvation) If you were crying for mercy and where waiting for Him that day He did not fail you! He is doing everything according to His perfect will. May 21 is so perfectly taught in the Bible, that’s why it was such a big shock when it didn’t happen as we believed it would. Understand May 21 2011 comes from the Bible; many good people searched the scriptures daily to make sure that is so, I myself understand from the bible that these numbers add up for a reason, It’s impossible that day meant nothing.. of course it did! Mr. Camping & men like him preached the word of God exactly how God wanted them to & that includes all who contributed to that word being preached to all the world. We preached judgment day and it WAS the beginning of judgement day for all who weren’t given ears to hear, for them all hope is gone; no more salvation. that’s why the preaching was so sure.thank God if you were given the ability to cry for mercy & the faith to wait upon the LORD that day;and rejoice that he has given us understanding now to see his plan.
Please, everyone who waited for May 21st go to your Bible and read Revelation 11,The first sentence was finished when May 21 finished; the last day of the 7000 year history of the flood of Noah’s day,and the last day of the 23 year great tribulation.There’s no reason to preach the gospel anymore; even though it’s been the most important conversation we could’ve had with anyone.But those who were waiting for the LORD on May 21st be strengthened with the fact that God’s in charge and is completing his will as we speak.
It appears Family Radio is sharply divided and it is playing out over the airwaves. Yesterday Craig Hulsebos “Behind The Scenes” was saying “today is still the day of salvation.” Last evening Mr Camping told the entire world using the Family Radio platform there is No more salvation, the door has been shut, now we just await the end October 21 2011 but absolutely May 21 2011 was the last day of salvation. This morning Craig Hulsebus in Behind the Scenes said that he reiterates what he said yesterday that “today is still the day of salvation.”
I am simply amazed that anyone could still be following Harold Camping. If readers will note Darrell Lockridge’s April 11th comment above, he says that his understanding of the Bible is “perfect“, and there is no possibility of May 21 NOT being the doomsday date. The only thing this proves is that Darrell and other Campingites were deceived. That they STILL believe in Camping’s predictions is far more telling and convicting than anything I could ever say. They were not just deluded, they ARE delusional.
Given all the stomping about concerning all the 100% absolute “proofs” for May 21, I thought to myself, “Surely these people will now see that they have been deceived.” Indeed, some have finally have, and to their credit, stopped listening to Harold Camping. Others… well, they persist in their “powerful delusion.” Will it now take October 22 to wake them up, or even then will they continue to make excuses and deceive themselves? I am so frustrated for them. What hope do they have? Wake up. Wake up. Wake up. Put Family Radio behind you. It’s the blind leading the blind.
-CL
Ol’ Harry is back at it again. Now he says it’s October 21, 2011 when the universe will explode. Insert forehead smack… here.
Here’s a link to the Yahoo article:
http://is.gd/8l5oOb
Lambeth,
You are mistaken. Camping has always said that October 21st would be the end of the end. May 21st was said to be the beginning of the end, when God’s elect would finally be sealed and set free from the corrupted universe. This is exactly what happened, just not in the way we thought it would. As the Word says, Gods ways are not our ways, so it is no surprise that May 21 did not happen like we thought. But this does not change the spiritual significance of May 21. There is no longer any chance for anyone to be “saved.” God has already chosen exactly who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. This could never be “changed” in the first place because God predestined who would go where before the creation existed, but now that election is closed. No one else will be born who is God’s elect. No one else can hear the gospel now or realize that they have been selected as God’s elect. The door is shut. The bridegroom has already closed the banquet in a spiritual sense. The whole Bible is spiritual, spoken in parables so I do not expect you to understand, but the tribulation has already begun.
Harold Camping was right about May 21 but all the horrors that were associated with that date are now clearly reserved for October 21. There will be no October 22 because the universe ends in fire on the 21st. The Bible proves this. To deny this teaching is to deny slavation and God and Jesus. But now there is not any hope for you to be saved by crying out to God for mercy as they did in the old testament. As I said, the door is shut. We no longer need to broadcast our message to the world. We must just be patient while he “tarries” before the destruction to come. Good luck to you.
Ben Amos,
I commend you for the level of your faith, but as confident as you are about Harold Camping’s prophecies, I am confident that your faith is misplaced. We could debate about many different verses and the meanings thereof, but my most important question for you here is: “How do you know that you are not being deceived AGAIN?” What would look different if Harold Camping was actually lying to you and inventing all this Bible Calendar stuff? How could you tell the difference between that and the current situation?
-CL
The silence of the Camping Cult is deafening. Have they no response?
Sadly, I do not anticipate that they will extricate themselves from their delusion, even on October 22. I hope I am wrong for their sake.
-CL
It’s October 23rd. Oops.